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  {
    "start": 0.0,
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    "text": " The following is a conversation with Sam Harris,",
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  {
    "start": 2.6,
    "end": 5.04,
    "text": " one of the most influential and pioneering thinkers",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5.04,
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    "text": " of our time.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 6.04,
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    "text": " He's the host of the Making Sense podcast",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8.58,
    "end": 11.52,
    "text": " and the author of many seminal books on human nature",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 11.52,
    "end": 14.620000000000001,
    "text": " and the human mind, including The End of Faith,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 14.620000000000001,
    "end": 18.56,
    "text": " The Moral Landscape, Lying, Free Will, and Waking Up.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 18.56,
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    "text": " He also has a meditation app called Waking Up",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 21.62,
    "end": 24.76,
    "text": " that I've been using to guide my own meditation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 24.76,
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    "text": " Quick mention of our sponsors,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 26.860000000000003,
    "end": 30.560000000000002,
    "text": " National Instruments, Val Campo, Athletic Greens,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 30.560000000000002,
    "end": 31.6,
    "text": " and Linode.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 31.6,
    "end": 34.900000000000006,
    "text": " Check them out in the description to support this podcast.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 34.900000000000006,
    "end": 37.6,
    "text": " As a side note, let me say that Sam has been",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 37.6,
    "end": 41.400000000000006,
    "text": " an inspiration to me as he has been for many, many people,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 41.400000000000006,
    "end": 44.900000000000006,
    "text": " first from his writing, then his early debates,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 44.900000000000006,
    "end": 48.38,
    "text": " maybe 13, 14 years ago on the subject of faith,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 48.38,
    "end": 51.32000000000001,
    "text": " his conversations with Christopher Hitchens,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 51.32000000000001,
    "end": 54.46,
    "text": " and since 2013, his podcast.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 54.480000000000004,
    "end": 56.92,
    "text": " I didn't always agree with all of his ideas,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 56.92,
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    "text": " but I was always drawn to the care and depth",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 59.76,
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    "text": " of the way he explored those ideas,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 62.1,
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    "text": " the calm and clarity amid the storm of difficult",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 65.46000000000001,
    "end": 67.7,
    "text": " at times controversial discourse.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 67.7,
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    "text": " I really can't express in words how much it meant to me",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 70.7,
    "end": 74.18,
    "text": " that he, Sam Harris, someone who I've listened to",
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  {
    "start": 74.18,
    "end": 77.38,
    "text": " for many hundreds of hours, would write a kind email",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 77.38,
    "end": 80.62,
    "text": " to me saying he enjoyed this podcast",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 80.62,
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    "text": " and more that he thought I had a unique voice",
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  {
    "start": 83.64,
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    "text": " that added something to this world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 85.98,
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    "text": " Whether it's true or not, it made me feel special",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 88.68,
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    "text": " and truly grateful to be able to do this thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 91.16000000000001,
    "end": 93.76,
    "text": " and motivated me to work my ass off",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 93.76,
    "end": 95.48,
    "text": " to live up to those words.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 95.48,
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    "text": " Meeting Sam and getting to talk with him",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 98.0,
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    "text": " was one of the most memorable moments of my life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 101.76,
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    "text": " This is the Lex Friedman podcast,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 104.10000000000001,
    "end": 107.7,
    "text": " and here is my conversation with Sam Harris.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 108.80000000000001,
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    "text": " I've been enjoying meditating",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 110.26,
    "end": 112.78,
    "text": " with the Waking Up app recently.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 112.8,
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    "text": " It makes me think about the origins of cognition",
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  {
    "start": 115.9,
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    "text": " and consciousness, so let me ask,",
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  {
    "start": 118.7,
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    "text": " where do thoughts come from?",
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    "start": 121.08,
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    "text": " Well, that's a very difficult question to answer.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 124.74000000000001,
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    "text": " Subjectively, they appear to come from nowhere, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 129.52,
    "end": 134.52,
    "text": " I mean, it's just they come out of some kind of mystery",
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    "start": 134.78,
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    "text": " that is at our backs subjectively, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 137.16,
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    "text": " So, which is to say that if you pay attention",
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    "text": " to the nature of your mind in this moment,",
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    "text": " you realize that you don't know",
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    "text": " what you're going to think next, right?",
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    "start": 149.20000000000002,
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    "text": " Now, you're expecting to think something",
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    "text": " that seems like you authored it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You're not, unless you're schizophrenic",
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    "text": " where your thoughts seem fundamentally foreign to you,",
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    "text": " they do have a kind of signature of selfhood",
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    "text": " associated with them, and people readily identify with them.",
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    "text": " They feel like what you are, I mean, this is the thing,",
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    "text": " this is the spell that gets broken with meditation.",
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    "text": " Our default state is to feel identical",
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    "text": " to the stream of thought, right?",
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    "text": " Which is fairly paradoxical, because how could you,",
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    "text": " as a mind, as a self, if there were such a thing as a self,",
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    "text": " how could you be identical to the next piece of language",
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  {
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    "text": " or the next image that just springs into conscious view?",
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    "text": " But, and you know, meditation is ultimately",
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    "text": " about examining that point of view closely enough",
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    "text": " so as to unravel it and feel the freedom",
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    "text": " that's on the other side of that identification.",
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    "text": " But the subjectively thoughts simply emerge, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 221.06000000000003,
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    "text": " And you don't think them before you think them, right?",
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    "text": " There's this first moment where anyone listening to us",
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    "text": " or watching us now could perform",
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    "text": " this experiment for themselves.",
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    "text": " I mean, just imagine something or remember something,",
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    "text": " and just pick a memory, any memory, right?",
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    "text": " You've got a storehouse of memory,",
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    "text": " just promote one to consciousness.",
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    "text": " Did you pick that memory?",
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    "text": " I mean, let's say you remembered breakfast yesterday,",
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    "text": " or you remembered what you said to your spouse",
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    "text": " before leaving the house, or you remembered",
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    "text": " or you remembered something that happened to you",
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    "start": 256.12,
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    "text": " when you were four years old, whatever it is, right?",
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    "text": " First it wasn't there, and then it appeared.",
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    "text": " And that is not a, I'm sure we'll get to the topic",
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    "text": " of free will, ultimately.",
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    "text": " That's not evidence of free will, right?",
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    "text": " Why are you so sure, by the way?",
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    "text": " It's very interesting.",
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    "text": " Well, through no free will of my own, yeah.",
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    "text": " Everything just appears, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 282.18,
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    "text": " What else could it do?",
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    "start": 283.70000000000005,
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    "text": " And so that's the subjective side of it.",
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    "text": " Objectively, we have every reason to believe",
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    "start": 288.08000000000004,
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    "text": " that many of our thoughts, all of our thoughts,",
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    "text": " are at bottom what some part of our brain is doing,",
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    "text": " neurophysiologically.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 298.14000000000004,
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    "text": " I mean, that these are the products",
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    "text": " of some kind of neural computation,",
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    "text": " and neural representation,",
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    "text": " when you're talking about memories.",
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    "text": " Is it possible to pull at the string of thoughts",
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    "text": " Is it possible to somehow get closer to the roots",
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    "text": " of where they come out of from the firing of the cells?",
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    "text": " Or is it a useless pursuit to dig into that direction?",
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    "text": " Well, you can get closer to many, many subtle contents",
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    "text": " in consciousness, right?",
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    "text": " So you can notice things more and more clearly,",
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    "text": " And if you take psychedelics, it opens up,",
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    "text": " that very few people imagine would be possible,",
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    "text": " but for having had those experiences.",
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    "text": " But this idea of you getting closer to something,",
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    "text": " to the datum of your mind,",
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    "text": " or such as something of interest in there,",
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    "text": " or something that's more real is ultimately undermined",
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    "text": " because there's no place",
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    "text": " from which you're getting closer to it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " There's no your part of that journey, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " We tend to start out, whether it's in meditation",
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  {
    "start": 388.16,
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    "text": " or in any kind of self-examination or taking psychedelics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " we start out with this default point of view",
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    "text": " of feeling like we're the kind of the rider",
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    "text": " on the horse of consciousness,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " or we're the man in the boat",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 405.42,
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    "text": " going down the stream of consciousness, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " But we're differentiated",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " from what we know cognitively, introspectively.",
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    "text": " But that feeling of being differentiated,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 418.14000000000004,
    "end": 419.54,
    "text": " that feeling of being a self",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 419.54,
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    "text": " that can strategically pay attention",
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    "start": 421.70000000000005,
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    "text": " to some contents of consciousness,",
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  },
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    "start": 424.44,
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    "text": " is what it's like to be identified",
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  {
    "start": 426.71999999999997,
    "end": 429.48,
    "text": " with some part of the stream of thought",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 429.48,
    "end": 430.92,
    "text": " that's going on inspected, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 430.92,
    "end": 433.6,
    "text": " Like it's a false point of view.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 433.6,
    "end": 436.76,
    "text": " And when you see that and cut through that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 436.76,
    "end": 441.76,
    "text": " then this notion of going deeper kind of breaks apart",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 442.58,
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    "text": " because really there is no depth ultimately,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 446.04,
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    "text": " everything is right on the surface.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 447.68,
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    "text": " There's no center to consciousness,",
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  {
    "start": 449.04,
    "end": 450.48,
    "text": " there's just consciousness in its contents.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 450.48,
    "end": 453.18,
    "text": " And those contents can change vastly.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 453.22,
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    "text": " Again, if you drop acid, the contents change,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 457.98,
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    "text": " but in some sense that doesn't represent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 463.94,
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    "text": " a position of depth versus,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 465.86,
    "end": 469.26,
    "text": " the continuum of depth versus surface has broken apart.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 469.26,
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    "text": " So you're taking as a starting point",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 471.58,
    "end": 474.34000000000003,
    "text": " that there is a horse called consciousness",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 474.34000000000003,
    "end": 475.82,
    "text": " and you're riding it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 475.82,
    "end": 477.74,
    "text": " and the actual riding is very shallow,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 477.74,
    "end": 479.8,
    "text": " this is all surface.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 479.8,
    "end": 482.6,
    "text": " So let me ask about that horse.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 482.6,
    "end": 484.24,
    "text": " What's up with the horse?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 484.24,
    "end": 486.3,
    "text": " What is consciousness?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 487.32000000000005,
    "end": 489.84000000000003,
    "text": " From where does it emerge?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 489.84000000000003,
    "end": 493.1,
    "text": " How like fundamental is it to the physics of reality?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 493.1,
    "end": 496.64000000000004,
    "text": " How fundamental is it to what it means to be human?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 496.64000000000004,
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    "text": " And I'm just asking for a friend",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 498.70000000000005,
    "end": 502.12,
    "text": " so that we can build it in our artificial intelligence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 502.12,
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    "text": " systems.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 503.92,
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    "text": " Yeah, well, that remains to be seen",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 505.72,
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    "text": " if we can, if we will build it purposefully",
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  {
    "start": 508.88,
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    "text": " or just by accident,",
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    "start": 510.28,
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    "text": " it's a major ethical problem potentially.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 515.7,
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    "text": " That I mean, my concern here is that we may in fact",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 520.28,
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    "text": " build artificial intelligence that passes the Turing test,",
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  {
    "start": 524.1,
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    "text": " which we begin to treat not only as super intelligent",
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    "start": 527.12,
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    "text": " because it obviously is and demonstrates that,",
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    "start": 530.96,
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    "text": " but we begin to treat it as conscious",
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    "start": 533.24,
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    "start": 534.98,
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    "text": " we will have built it to seem conscious.",
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    "text": " And unless we understand exactly how consciousness emerges",
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    "start": 541.4599999999999,
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    "text": " from physics, we won't actually know",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 544.98,
    "end": 546.38,
    "text": " that these systems are conscious, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 546.38,
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    "text": " We'll just, you know, they may say, you know, listen,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 548.3,
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    "text": " you can't turn me off because that's a murder, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 551.06,
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    "text": " And we will be convinced by that dialogue",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 555.34,
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    "text": " because we will, you know, just in the extreme case,",
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    "start": 558.62,
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    "text": " who knows when we'll get there.",
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  {
    "start": 565.98,
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    "text": " so we're basically in, you know, a Westworld like situation,",
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    "text": " there's no way we're going to withhold an attribution",
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    "text": " of consciousness from those machines.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " in every glance and every utterance.",
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    "start": 582.98,
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    "text": " But we won't know.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 584.82,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 587.42,
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    "text": " than we can be skeptical of the consciousness",
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    "start": 590.58,
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    "text": " of other people.",
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    "start": 593.22,
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    "text": " or you don't know that I'm conscious,",
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    "start": 595.86,
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    "text": " we're just passing the Turing test for one another,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 597.18,
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    "text": " but that kind of solipsism isn't justified, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 601.5,
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    "text": " biologically or anything we understand",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 605.74,
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    "text": " about the mind biologically suggests",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 607.36,
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    "text": " that you and I are part of the same, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 610.5,
    "end": 615.5,
    "text": " role of the dice in terms of how intelligent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 616.62,
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    "text": " and conscious systems emerged in the wetware",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 619.42,
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    "text": " of brains like ours, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 621.9399999999999,
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    "text": " So it's not parsimonious for me to think",
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    "start": 624.24,
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    "text": " that I might be the only conscious person",
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    "text": " or even the only conscious primate, you know,",
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    "start": 629.04,
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    "start": 631.28,
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    "text": " consciousness from other apes and even other mammals,",
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    "start": 636.12,
    "end": 638.48,
    "text": " ultimately, and you know, once you get beyond the mammals,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 638.48,
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    "text": " then my intuitions are not really clear.",
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    "text": " is still uncertain.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 649.36,
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    "text": " You can, you know, it's not fashionable to think this,",
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    "text": " even though everything else that we recognize",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " about ourselves as minds almost certainly does emerge.",
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    "start": 671.48,
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    "text": " You know, like an ability to process language,",
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    "start": 673.22,
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    "text": " that clearly is a matter of information processing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " because you can disrupt that process in ways",
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    "text": " that is just so clear.",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and you can give someone general anesthesia",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 693.02,
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    "text": " and then you wake them up and you ask them,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " well, what was that like?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And they say, nothing, I don't remember anything,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 698.66,
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    "text": " but it's hard to differentiate a mere failure of memory",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " from a genuine interruption in consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 709.14,
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    "text": " Whereas it's not with interrupting speech, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 712.26,
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    "text": " we know when we've done it and it's just obvious",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and you've disrupted speech.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So if you had to bet all your money on one camp",
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    "start": 724.22,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 725.9399999999999,
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    "text": " do you earn the side of panpsychism",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " where consciousness is really fundamental",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
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    "text": " to all of reality or more on the other side,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " which is like, it's a nice little side effect,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " a useful like hack for us humans to survive.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 744.5,
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    "text": " On that spectrum, where do you land",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " when you think about consciousness,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " especially from an engineering perspective?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 750.34,
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    "text": " I'm truly agnostic on this point.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 753.22,
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    "text": " I mean, I think I'm, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " it's kind of in coin toss mode for me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I don't know.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And panpsychism is not so compelling to me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Again, it just seems un-falsifiable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 766.9399999999999,
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    "text": " I wouldn't know how the universe would be different",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " if panpsychism were true.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 770.7800000000001,
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    "text": " It's just to remind people panpsychism is this idea",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that consciousness may be pushed all the way down",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 777.34,
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    "text": " into the most fundamental constituents of matter.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So there might be something that it's like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 781.1400000000001,
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    "text": " to be an electron or, you know, a cork,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 785.1800000000001,
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    "text": " but then you wouldn't expect anything to be different",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " at the macro scale,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "end": 794.82,
    "text": " or at least I wouldn't expect anything to be different.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So it may be unfalsifiable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It just might be that reality is not something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 802.3199999999999,
    "end": 806.16,
    "text": " we're as in touch with as we think we are.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 806.16,
    "end": 811.16,
    "text": " And that is base layer to kind of break it into mind",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 811.96,
    "end": 814.6,
    "text": " and matter as we've done ontologically",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 815.64,
    "end": 817.4,
    "text": " is to misconstrue it, right?",
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    "text": " I mean, there could be some kind of neutral monism",
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    "text": " at the bottom.",
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    "text": " And this, you know, this idea doesn't originate with me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " may in fact be part of our problem, right?",
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    "text": " Where the rubber hits the road psychologically here",
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    "text": " That really seems to be the many people's concern here.",
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    "text": " certainly seems to be happening in the dark, right?",
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    "text": " It doesn't require a sense of self, right?",
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    "text": " It's just, there's a lot going on, even in a fly, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " So the lights don't actually even turn on",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " until after birth in that construction.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " that it is a sort of construct of the way we deal,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " almost like a social tool to deal with the reality",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 1182.92,
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    "text": " of the world, the social interaction with other humans?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Because you're saying the complete opposite,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " which is it's like fundamental to single cell organisms",
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    "text": " and trees and so on.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1204.1200000000001,
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    "text": " And I just, again, it could be unfalsifiable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1208.26,
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    "text": " But as far as babies not being conscious,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1210.5200000000002,
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    "text": " you don't become conscious until you can recognize yourself",
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    "text": " in a mirror or you have a conversation",
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    "text": " or treat other people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " First of all, babies treat other people as others",
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    "text": " far earlier than we have traditionally given them credit for",
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    "start": 1225.8400000000001,
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    "text": " and they certainly do it before they have language, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1229.18,
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    "text": " So it's gotta proceed language to some degree.",
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    "text": " And I mean, you can interrogate this for yourself",
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    "start": 1236.8,
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    "text": " because you can put yourself in various states",
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    "start": 1240.3600000000001,
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    "text": " that are rather obviously not linguistic.",
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    "text": " You know, meditation allows you to do this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You can certainly do it with psychedelics",
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    "text": " where it's just your capacity for language",
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    "text": " has been obliterated and yet you're all too conscious.",
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    "text": " In fact, I think you could make a stronger argument",
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    "start": 1265.68,
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    "text": " for things running the other way",
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    "start": 1278.2,
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    "text": " sense data and everything else than we tend to be.",
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    "text": " And we have trimmed it down",
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    "start": 1305.6399999999999,
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    "text": " or a waterfall or things I'm not expecting,",
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    "start": 1311.1,
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    "text": " once I walk into a room and I see a live gorilla or whatever.",
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    "start": 1325.98,
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    "text": " it becomes incredibly overloaded with,",
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    "text": " And as you're coming down, right?",
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    "text": " Have you done psychedelics?",
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    "text": " Have you ever done acid or?",
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    "start": 1372.3,
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    "text": " Not acid, mushroom, and that's it.",
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    "text": " And also edibles,",
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    "text": " But yeah, mushrooms several times",
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    "text": " and always had an incredible experience,",
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    "start": 1387.66,
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    "text": " exactly the kind of experience you're referring to,",
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    "text": " were beautiful in the way that",
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    "text": " like trees and nature and so on.",
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    "text": " Yeah, and the experience of coming down",
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    "text": " what you just saw a moment ago in words, right?",
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    "text": " Like, especially if you have any part of your",
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    "text": " is to be able to capture things in words.",
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    "start": 1435.7,
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    "text": " the total fatuousness of that enterprise",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " when you have taken a whopping dose of psychedelics",
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    "start": 1465.66,
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    "text": " thread a needle using your elbows.",
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    "text": " I mean, it's like you're trying something that can't,",
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    "text": " it's clearly not about language structuring your experience",
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    "text": " So the primacy of language is primary for some things,",
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    "start": 1500.58,
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    "text": " and certain kinds of semantic understandings of the world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1511.22,
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    "text": " But it's clearly more to mind than",
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    "text": " the conversation we're having with ourselves",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1518.6599999999999,
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    "text": " or that we can have with others.",
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    "start": 1521.46,
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    "text": " Can we go to that world of psychedelics for a bit?",
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    "start": 1525.94,
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    "text": " Sure.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1527.26,
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    "text": " Where do you think,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 1529.3,
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    "text": " so Joe Rogan apparently and many others",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " meet apparently elves when they, on DMT,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 1538.3400000000001,
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    "text": " a lot of people report this kind of creatures that they see.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " And again, it's probably the failure of language",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " to describe that experience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " but DMT is an interesting one.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " There's, as you're aware,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 1549.3,
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    "text": " there's a bunch of studies going on on psychedelics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
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    "text": " currently on DMA, psilocybin,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 1557.14,
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    "text": " and John Hopkins and a bunch of other places.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " But DMT, they all speak of as like some extra super level",
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    "text": " of a psychedelic.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Do you have a sense of where it is our mind goes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " on psychedelics, but in DMT especially?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 1580.22,
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    "text": " Well, unfortunately, I haven't taken DMT.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 1582.66,
    "end": 1583.94,
    "text": " Unfortunately or fortunately?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 1583.94,
    "end": 1584.78,
    "text": " Unfortunately, yeah.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1584.78,
    "end": 1586.38,
    "text": " Unfortunately.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Although I presume it's in my body",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1588.22,
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    "text": " as it is in everyone's brain",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and in many, many plants apparently.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " But I've wanted to take it,",
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    "text": " I haven't had an opportunity that would present itself",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " where it was obviously the right thing for me to be doing.",
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    "text": " DMT is often touted as the most intense psychedelic",
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    "text": " and also the shortest acting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I mean, you smoke it and it's basically",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " a 10 minute experience or a three minute experience",
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    "text": " within like a 10 minute window",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that when you're really down after 10 minutes or so.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And Terence McKenna was a big proponent of DMT.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " That was his, the center of the bullseye for him,",
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    "text": " psychedelically, apparently.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And it does, it is characterized,",
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    "text": " it seems for many people by this phenomenon,",
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    "text": " which is unlike virtually any other psychedelic experience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " which is your, it's not just your perception",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " being broadened or changed.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's you, according to Terence McKenna,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1655.5600000000002,
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    "text": " feeling fairly unchanged,",
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    "text": " but catapulted into a different circumstance.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1661.0800000000002,
    "end": 1663.64,
    "text": " You have been shot elsewhere",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1663.64,
    "end": 1666.5600000000002,
    "text": " and find yourself in relationship",
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    "start": 1666.5600000000002,
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    "text": " to other entities of some kind.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1669.3600000000001,
    "end": 1671.5400000000002,
    "text": " So the place is populated with things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1671.5400000000002,
    "end": 1674.2,
    "text": " that seem not to be your mind.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1674.2,
    "end": 1676.3200000000002,
    "text": " So it does feel like travel to another place",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 1676.3200000000002,
    "end": 1678.24,
    "text": " because you are unchanged yourself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 1678.24,
    "end": 1680.5400000000002,
    "text": " Again, I just have this on the authority",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1680.5400000000002,
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    "text": " of the people who have described their experience,",
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    "start": 1683.3400000000001,
    "end": 1685.92,
    "text": " but it sounds like it's pretty common.",
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  {
    "start": 1685.92,
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    "text": " It sounds like it's pretty common for people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1687.1200000000001,
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    "text": " not to have the full experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1688.5600000000002,
    "end": 1691.68,
    "text": " because it's apparently pretty unpleasant to smoke.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1691.68,
    "end": 1693.4,
    "text": " So it's like getting enough onboard",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1693.48,
    "end": 1696.88,
    "text": " in order to get shot out of the cannon",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1697.92,
    "end": 1699.42,
    "text": " and land among the,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1700.8200000000002,
    "end": 1705.52,
    "text": " what McKenna called self-transforming machine elves",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1707.5600000000002,
    "end": 1709.92,
    "text": " that appeared to him like jeweled,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1709.92,
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    "text": " Faberge egg-like self-drippling basketballs",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1713.0400000000002,
    "end": 1717.44,
    "text": " that were handing him completely uninterpretable",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1717.44,
    "end": 1719.5600000000002,
    "text": " reams of profound knowledge.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 1719.56,
    "end": 1724.56,
    "text": " It's an experience I haven't had,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 1724.6,
    "end": 1727.8,
    "text": " so I just have to accept that people have had it.",
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    "text": " I would just point out that our minds are clearly capable",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1733.94,
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    "text": " of producing apparent others on demand",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1739.12,
    "end": 1742.0,
    "text": " that are totally compelling to us, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1742.0,
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    "text": " There's no limit to our ability to do that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1744.8799999999999,
    "end": 1748.36,
    "text": " as anyone who's ever remembered a dream can attest.",
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  },
  {
    "start": 1748.3600000000001,
    "end": 1750.4,
    "text": " Every night we go to sleep,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1750.4,
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    "text": " some of us don't remember dreams very often,",
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    "start": 1751.96,
    "end": 1755.72,
    "text": " but some dream vividly every night.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 1755.72,
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    "text": " And just think of how insane that experience is.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1760.94,
    "end": 1763.96,
    "text": " I mean, you've forgotten where you were, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1763.96,
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    "text": " That's the strangest part.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1765.6000000000001,
    "end": 1767.2400000000002,
    "text": " I mean, this is psychosis, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1767.2400000000002,
    "end": 1769.5600000000002,
    "text": " You have lost your mind.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1769.5600000000002,
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    "text": " You have lost your connection to your episodic memory",
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    "start": 1774.96,
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    "text": " or even your expectations",
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    "start": 1777.44,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1781.56,
    "end": 1784.94,
    "text": " a moment after you have closed your eyes, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1784.94,
    "end": 1789.2,
    "text": " Like you're in bed, you're watching something on Netflix,",
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  {
    "start": 1789.2,
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    "text": " you're waiting to fall asleep,",
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  {
    "start": 1790.48,
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    "start": 1794.6799999999998,
    "end": 1796.32,
    "text": " and you're not surprised, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1796.32,
    "end": 1797.56,
    "text": " You're talking to dead people,",
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    "text": " you're hanging out with famous people,",
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  {
    "start": 1802.92,
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    "text": " you can fly and even that's not surprising, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1805.72,
    "end": 1810.72,
    "text": " So you've lost your mind, but relevantly for this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1810.88,
    "end": 1812.24,
    "text": " Or found it.",
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    "start": 1812.24,
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    "text": " You found something, lucid dreaming is very interesting",
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    "start": 1814.8400000000001,
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    "text": " because then you can have the best of both circumstances",
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    "start": 1817.96,
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    "text": " and then it can become systematically explored.",
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    "start": 1823.0,
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    "text": " Well, what I mean by found just to start to interrupt",
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    "start": 1825.48,
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    "text": " is like if we take this brilliant idea",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
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    "text": " that language constrains us, grounds us,",
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    "start": 1832.04,
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    "text": " language and other things of the waking world ground us,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 1835.68,
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    "text": " maybe it is that you've found the full capacity",
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    "end": 1844.84,
    "text": " of your cognition when you dream or when you do psychedelics.",
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    "start": 1844.84,
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    "text": " You're stepping outside the little human cage,",
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    "start": 1854.32,
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    "text": " Well, you've definitely stepped out of something",
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  {
    "start": 1857.2,
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    "text": " and into something else, but you've also lost something,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1859.28,
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    "text": " right, you've lost certain capacities.",
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    "start": 1862.1200000000001,
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    "text": " Well, just, yeah, in this case, you literally didn't,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1865.92,
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    "text": " you don't have enough presence of mind in the dreaming,",
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  {
    "start": 1868.76,
    "end": 1871.7,
    "text": " in the dreaming state or even in the psychedelic state",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1871.7,
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    "text": " if you take enough.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1874.92,
    "end": 1876.24,
    "text": " To do math.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 1876.24,
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    "text": " There's no psychological, there's very little",
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  {
    "start": 1878.3600000000001,
    "end": 1881.8,
    "text": " psychological continuity with your life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1881.8,
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    "text": " such that you're not surprised to be in the presence",
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    "start": 1886.44,
    "end": 1890.22,
    "text": " of someone who should be, you should know is dead",
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  {
    "start": 1890.22,
    "end": 1892.66,
    "text": " or you should know you're not likely to have met",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1892.66,
    "end": 1893.98,
    "text": " by normal channels, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1893.98,
    "end": 1896.54,
    "text": " You're now talking to some celebrity",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1896.54,
    "end": 1899.22,
    "text": " and it turns out you're best friends, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1899.22,
    "end": 1900.8600000000001,
    "text": " And you're not even, you have no memory",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1900.8600000000001,
    "end": 1903.02,
    "text": " of how you got there, like how did you get into the room?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1903.02,
    "end": 1905.38,
    "text": " You're like, did you drive to this restaurant?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1905.38,
    "end": 1907.58,
    "text": " You have no memory and none of that's surprising to you.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1907.58,
    "end": 1909.82,
    "text": " So you're kind of brain damaged in a way,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1909.82,
    "end": 1913.5,
    "text": " you're not reality testing in the normal way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1913.5,
    "end": 1916.5,
    "text": " The fascinating possibility is that there's probably",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 1916.5,
    "end": 1919.02,
    "text": " thousands of people who've taken psychedelics",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 1919.02,
    "end": 1923.66,
    "text": " in various forms and have met Sam Harris on the journey.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 1923.66,
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    "text": " Well, I would put it more likely in dreams,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 1925.46,
    "end": 1928.1399999999999,
    "text": " not, you know, cause in psychedelics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1928.1399999999999,
    "end": 1931.54,
    "text": " you don't tend to hallucinate in a dreamlike way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 1931.54,
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    "text": " I mean, so DMT is giving you an experience of others,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1935.6399999999999,
    "end": 1939.42,
    "text": " but it seems to be non-standard.",
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  {
    "start": 1939.42,
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    "text": " It's not like, it's not just like dream hallucinations,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1943.06,
    "end": 1946.58,
    "text": " but to the point of coming back to DMT,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1947.5,
    "end": 1951.3,
    "text": " the people want to suggest and Terrence McKenna",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1951.3,
    "end": 1954.98,
    "text": " certainly did suggest that because these others",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1954.98,
    "end": 1958.5,
    "text": " are so obviously other and they're so vivid,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1958.5,
    "end": 1961.3,
    "text": " well, then they could not possibly be the creation",
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    "start": 1961.3,
    "end": 1965.06,
    "text": " of my own mind, but every night in dreams,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1965.06,
    "end": 1969.86,
    "text": " you create a compelling or what is to you at the time,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1969.86,
    "end": 1974.06,
    "text": " a totally compelling simulacrum of another person, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1974.06,
    "end": 1979.06,
    "text": " And that just proves the mind is capable of doing it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1981.02,
    "end": 1984.78,
    "text": " Now, the phenomenon of lucid dreaming shows",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1984.78,
    "end": 1987.26,
    "text": " that the mind isn't capable of doing everything",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1987.26,
    "end": 1990.1,
    "text": " you think it might be capable of even in that space.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1990.1,
    "end": 1994.34,
    "text": " So one of the things that people have discovered",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 1994.34,
    "end": 1997.54,
    "text": " in lucid dreams, and I haven't done a lot of lucid dreaming,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 1997.54,
    "end": 2000.06,
    "text": " so I can't confirm all of this,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2000.06,
    "end": 2001.7,
    "text": " so I can confirm some of it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2004.54,
    "end": 2008.22,
    "text": " Apparently in every house, in every room",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2008.22,
    "end": 2010.46,
    "text": " in the mansion of dreams,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2010.46,
    "end": 2012.86,
    "text": " all light switches are dimmer switches.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2012.86,
    "end": 2016.1,
    "text": " Like if you go into a dark room and flip on the light,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2016.1,
    "end": 2018.02,
    "text": " it gradually comes up.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2018.02,
    "end": 2021.4199999999998,
    "text": " It doesn't come up instantly on demand",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2021.4199999999998,
    "end": 2024.06,
    "text": " because apparently this is covering",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2024.06,
    "end": 2027.58,
    "text": " for the brain's inability to produce",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2027.58,
    "end": 2032.1799999999998,
    "text": " from a standing start visually rich imagery on demand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2032.9,
    "end": 2033.9,
    "text": " I haven't confirmed that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2033.9,
    "end": 2037.98,
    "text": " but people have done research on lucid dreaming claim",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2037.98,
    "end": 2039.8600000000001,
    "text": " that it's all dimmer switches.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2041.42,
    "end": 2043.0600000000002,
    "text": " But one thing I have noticed,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2043.0600000000002,
    "end": 2045.9,
    "text": " and people can check this out,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2045.9,
    "end": 2050.66,
    "text": " is that in a dream, if you look at text,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2050.66,
    "end": 2054.06,
    "text": " you know, a page of text or a sign",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2054.06,
    "end": 2056.34,
    "text": " or a television that has text on it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2056.34,
    "end": 2058.86,
    "text": " and then you turn away and you look back at that text,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2058.86,
    "end": 2061.2200000000003,
    "text": " the text will have changed, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2061.7000000000003,
    "end": 2064.5000000000005,
    "text": " The total is it's just a chronic instability,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2064.5000000000005,
    "end": 2068.94,
    "text": " graphical instability of text in the dream state.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2068.94,
    "end": 2070.2200000000003,
    "text": " And I don't know if that, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2070.2200000000003,
    "end": 2073.26,
    "text": " maybe someone can confirm that that's not true for them,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2073.26,
    "end": 2075.0200000000004,
    "text": " but whenever I've checked that out,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2075.0200000000004,
    "end": 2075.86,
    "text": " that has been true for me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2075.86,
    "end": 2079.1000000000004,
    "text": " So it keeps generating it like real time",
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    "text": " Yeah, it's rendering, it's re-rendering it for some reason.",
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    "text": " that could be injected?",
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    "text": " And apparently out of all the psychedelics,",
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    "text": " to visualize geometric things in a stable way in your mind",
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    "text": " excellent conversation with Donald Hoffman.",
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    "text": " and its contents.",
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    "text": " that our materialist assumptions are confirmable, right?",
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    "text": " there's a lot of energy in that matter, right?",
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    "text": " around the yield or off by orders of magnitude.",
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    "text": " And lo and behold, there was that energy to be released",
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    "text": " therefore in the dark, and they are the processes",
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    "text": " in the first place.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " it just seems, it seems like a bizarrely anthropocentric",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2517.7,
    "end": 2522.7,
    "text": " claim analogous to the moon isn't there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2523.54,
    "end": 2525.74,
    "text": " if no one's looking at it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2525.74,
    "end": 2528.58,
    "text": " The moon as a moon isn't there if no one's looking at it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2528.58,
    "end": 2531.5,
    "text": " I'll grant that, because that's already",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2531.5,
    "end": 2534.66,
    "text": " a kind of fabrication born of concepts.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2534.66,
    "end": 2537.18,
    "text": " But the idea that there's nothing there,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2537.18,
    "end": 2539.66,
    "text": " that there's nothing that corresponds",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2539.66,
    "end": 2541.8799999999997,
    "text": " to what we experience as the moon,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2541.8799999999997,
    "end": 2544.66,
    "text": " unless someone's looking at it, that just seems",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2546.46,
    "end": 2549.8599999999997,
    "text": " just a way too parochial way to set out",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2549.8599999999997,
    "end": 2551.54,
    "text": " on this journey of discovery.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2551.54,
    "end": 2553.14,
    "text": " There is something there, there's a computer",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2553.14,
    "end": 2556.1,
    "text": " waiting to render the moon when you look at it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2556.1,
    "end": 2558.7799999999997,
    "text": " The capacity for the moon to exist is there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2558.7799999999997,
    "end": 2562.62,
    "text": " So if we're indeed living in a simulation,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2562.62,
    "end": 2565.54,
    "text": " which I find a compelling thought experiment,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2565.54,
    "end": 2567.7799999999997,
    "text": " it's possible that there is this kind of",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2567.82,
    "end": 2571.02,
    "text": " rendering mechanism, but not in the silly way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2571.02,
    "end": 2572.5,
    "text": " that we think about in video games,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2572.5,
    "end": 2575.34,
    "text": " but in some kind of more fundamental physics way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2575.34,
    "end": 2579.2200000000003,
    "text": " And we have to account for the fact that it renders",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2580.1400000000003,
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    "text": " experiences that no one has had yet,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2584.1800000000003,
    "end": 2587.2200000000003,
    "text": " that no one has any expectation of having,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2587.2200000000003,
    "end": 2590.38,
    "text": " it can violate the expectations of everyone lawfully, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2590.38,
    "end": 2594.3,
    "text": " And then there's some lawful understanding of why that's so.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2594.3,
    "end": 2598.34,
    "text": " It's like, I mean, just to bring it back to mathematics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2598.34,
    "end": 2600.5,
    "text": " I mean, like certain numbers are prime,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2600.5,
    "end": 2602.78,
    "text": " whether we have discovered them or not, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2602.78,
    "end": 2604.94,
    "text": " Like there's the highest prime number",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2604.94,
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    "text": " that anyone can name now.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2607.7000000000003,
    "end": 2609.2400000000002,
    "text": " And then there's the next prime number",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2609.2400000000002,
    "end": 2611.7000000000003,
    "text": " that no one can name, and it's there, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2611.7000000000003,
    "end": 2616.7000000000003,
    "text": " So it's like to say that our minds are putting it there,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2616.7400000000002,
    "end": 2619.7000000000003,
    "text": " that what we know as mind in ourselves is in some way,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2619.7000000000003,
    "end": 2621.94,
    "text": " in some sense, putting it there,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2622.54,
    "end": 2627.1,
    "text": " like the base layer of reality is consciousness, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2627.1,
    "end": 2629.58,
    "text": " You know, that we're identical to the thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2629.58,
    "end": 2633.3,
    "text": " that is rendering this reality.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2633.3,
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    "text": " There's some, you know, hubris is the wrong word,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2637.78,
    "end": 2641.78,
    "text": " but it's like, it's okay if reality is bigger",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2641.78,
    "end": 2643.34,
    "text": " than what we experience, you know?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2643.34,
    "end": 2648.2200000000003,
    "text": " And it has structure that we can't anticipate",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2648.2200000000003,
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    "text": " and that isn't just,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2653.5800000000004,
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    "text": " I mean, again, there's certainly a collaboration",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2656.7400000000002,
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    "text": " between our minds and whatever's out there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2659.6600000000003,
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    "text": " to produce what we call, you know, the stuff of life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2664.1000000000004,
    "end": 2669.1000000000004,
    "text": " But it's not the idea that it's,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2671.0600000000004,
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    "text": " I don't know, I mean, there are a few stops",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2673.32,
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    "text": " on the train of idealism and kind of new age thinking",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2677.18,
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    "text": " and Eastern philosophy that I don't,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2680.62,
    "end": 2682.54,
    "text": " philosophically, I don't see a need to take.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2682.54,
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    "text": " I mean, the plays, experientially and scientifically,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2686.02,
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    "text": " I feel like it's, you can get everything you want",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2690.7400000000002,
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    "text": " acknowledging that consciousness has a character",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2696.34,
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    "text": " that can be explored from its own side",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2699.0,
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    "text": " so that you're bringing kind of the first person experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2701.66,
    "end": 2704.02,
    "text": " back into the conversation about, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2704.02,
    "end": 2706.86,
    "text": " what is a human mind and what is true.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2708.1,
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    "text": " And you can explore it with different degrees of rigor",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2712.12,
    "end": 2713.78,
    "text": " and there are things to be discovered there,",
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    "start": 2713.78,
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    "text": " whether you're using a technique like meditation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " or psychedelics, and that these experiences",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2719.08,
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    "text": " have to be put in conversation with what we understand",
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  {
    "start": 2722.58,
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    "text": " about ourselves from a third person side,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2724.66,
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    "text": " neuro scientifically or in any other way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2727.5,
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    "text": " But to me, the question is, what if reality,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2730.38,
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    "text": " the sense I have from this kind of,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 2733.58,
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    "text": " you play shooters?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2734.9,
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    "text": " No.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2735.74,
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    "text": " There's a physics engine that generate that's.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2738.38,
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    "text": " I have, you mean first person shooter games?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2740.38,
    "end": 2741.86,
    "text": " Yes, yes, sorry.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2741.86,
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    "text": " Not often, but yes.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2743.66,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
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    "text": " that generates consistent reality, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 2747.38,
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    "text": " My sense is the same could be true for a universe",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " in the following sense that our conception of reality",
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    "text": " is a tiny subset of the full reality.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " It's not that the reality that we conceive of",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " that's there, the moon being there is not there somehow.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 2766.52,
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    "text": " It's that it's a tiny fraction of what's actually out there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 2769.48,
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    "text": " And so the physics engine of the universe",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2772.92,
    "end": 2776.18,
    "text": " is just maintaining the useful physics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2776.18,
    "end": 2779.92,
    "text": " the useful reality, quote unquote,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2779.92,
    "end": 2782.96,
    "text": " for us to have a consistent experience as human beings.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 2782.96,
    "end": 2785.92,
    "text": " But maybe we descendants of apes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2785.92,
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    "text": " are really only understand like 0.0001%",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2791.48,
    "end": 2793.08,
    "text": " of actual physics of reality.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2793.08,
    "end": 2795.0,
    "text": " Like this, we can even just start",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2795.0,
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    "text": " with the consciousness thing,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 2796.64,
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    "text": " but maybe our minds are just,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "end": 2802.36,
    "text": " we're just too dumb by design.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 2802.36,
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    "text": " Oh yeah, I, that truly resonates with me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2806.84,
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    "text": " And I'm surprised it doesn't resonate more",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2808.36,
    "end": 2811.0,
    "text": " with most scientists that I talked to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2811.0,
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    "text": " Matthew, when you just look at,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2812.88,
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    "text": " you look at how close we are to chimps, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2817.2400000000002,
    "end": 2818.96,
    "text": " And chimps don't know anything, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2818.96,
    "end": 2821.28,
    "text": " Clearly they have no idea what's going on, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 2821.28,
    "end": 2823.32,
    "text": " And then then you get us,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2823.32,
    "end": 2826.2,
    "text": " but then it's only a subset of human beings",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2826.2,
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    "text": " that really understand much of what we're talking about",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2829.88,
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    "text": " on any area of specialization.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2832.68,
    "end": 2835.7200000000003,
    "text": " And if they all died in their sleep tonight, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2835.7200000000003,
    "end": 2840.68,
    "text": " You'd be left with people who might take a thousand years",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2840.68,
    "end": 2844.68,
    "text": " to rebuild the internet, if ever, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2844.68,
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    "text": " I mean, literally, it's like,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2846.2400000000002,
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    "text": " and I would extend this to myself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2849.32,
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    "text": " I mean, there are areas of scientific specialization",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2852.96,
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    "text": " where I have either no discernible competence.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2857.5200000000004,
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    "text": " I mean, I spent no time on it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2860.0800000000004,
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    "text": " I have not acquired the tools.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2862.1600000000003,
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    "text": " It would just be an article of faith for me to think",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2864.0400000000004,
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    "text": " that I could acquire the tools",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2865.1600000000003,
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    "text": " to actually make a breakthrough in those areas.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 2868.44,
    "end": 2870.6000000000004,
    "text": " And your own area is one.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2870.6000000000004,
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    "text": " I mean, I've never spent any significant amount of time",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2874.12,
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    "text": " trying to be a programmer,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2876.44,
    "end": 2880.4,
    "text": " but it's pretty obvious I'm not Alan Turing, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2880.4,
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    "text": " It's like, if that were my capacity,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2883.7999999999997,
    "end": 2885.88,
    "text": " I would have discovered that in myself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2885.88,
    "end": 2888.4,
    "text": " I would have found programming irresistible.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2888.4,
    "end": 2893.4,
    "text": " My first fall starts in learning, I think it was C.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2895.12,
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    "text": " It was just, I bounced off.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2897.2799999999997,
    "end": 2898.4,
    "text": " It's like, this was not fun.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2898.4,
    "end": 2902.2,
    "text": " I hate, I mean, trying to figure out what the syntax error",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2902.2000000000003,
    "end": 2904.32,
    "text": " that's causing this thing not to compile",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2904.32,
    "end": 2905.8,
    "text": " was just a fucking awful experience.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2905.8,
    "end": 2906.6400000000003,
    "text": " I hated it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2906.6400000000003,
    "end": 2908.0400000000004,
    "text": " I hated every minute of it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2908.0400000000004,
    "end": 2913.0400000000004,
    "text": " So it was not, so if it was just people like me left,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 2914.4800000000005,
    "end": 2917.4,
    "text": " like when do we get the internet again, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2917.4,
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    "text": " And we lose the internet.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2920.5600000000004,
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    "text": " When do we get it again, right?",
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  {
    "start": 2921.6400000000003,
    "end": 2925.76,
    "text": " When do we get anything like a proper science",
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  {
    "start": 2925.76,
    "end": 2927.2000000000003,
    "text": " of information, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2927.2000000000003,
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    "text": " You need a Claude Shannon or an Alan Turing",
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  {
    "start": 2930.96,
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    "text": " to plant a flag in the ground right here and say,",
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    "start": 2933.8,
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    "text": " all right, can everyone see this?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2935.2,
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    "text": " Even if you don't quite know what I'm up to,",
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    "start": 2937.8,
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    "text": " you all have to come over here to make some progress.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2943.2400000000002,
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    "text": " And there are hundreds of topics where that's the case.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2948.48,
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    "text": " So we barely have a purchase on making anything",
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  {
    "start": 2953.7200000000003,
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    "text": " like discernible intellectual progress in any generation.",
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    "text": " And yeah, Max Tegmark makes this point.",
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    "text": " He's one of the few people who does in physics.",
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    "start": 2969.76,
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    "text": " If you just take the truth of evolution seriously, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2976.4,
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    "text": " And realize that there's nothing about us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 2979.84,
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    "text": " that has evolved to understand reality perfectly.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2982.8,
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    "text": " I mean, we're just not that kind of ape, right?",
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    "text": " There's been no evolutionary pressure along those lines.",
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    "start": 2989.0,
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  {
    "start": 2993.2799999999997,
    "end": 2996.1,
    "text": " for fights with sticks and rocks, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 2997.9199999999996,
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    "text": " And it's amazing, we can do as much as we can.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3000.52,
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    "text": " I mean, you and I are just sitting here",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3002.44,
    "end": 3006.16,
    "text": " on the back of having received an mRNA vaccine",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3006.16,
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    "text": " that has certainly changed our life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3008.52,
    "end": 3010.6,
    "text": " given what the last year was like.",
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    "start": 3010.6,
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    "text": " And it's gonna change the world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3012.24,
    "end": 3016.52,
    "text": " if rumors of coming miracles are born out.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3016.6,
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    "text": " I mean, it's now seems likely we have a vaccine",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3020.88,
    "end": 3022.32,
    "text": " coming for malaria, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3022.32,
    "end": 3026.0,
    "text": " Which has been killing millions of people a year",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3026.0,
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    "text": " for as long as we've been alive.",
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    "start": 3028.52,
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    "text": " I think it's down to like 800,000 people a year now",
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    "start": 3031.32,
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    "text": " because we've spread so many bed nets around.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3034.0,
    "end": 3037.44,
    "text": " But it was like two and a half million people every year.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3039.4,
    "end": 3041.08,
    "text": " It's amazing what we can do.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3041.08,
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    "text": " But yeah, I have, if in fact that the answer",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3045.96,
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    "text": " to the back of the book of nature is you understand 0.1%",
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    "start": 3050.5200000000004,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3052.1600000000003,
    "end": 3054.92,
    "text": " and half of what you think you understand is wrong,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3054.92,
    "end": 3057.36,
    "text": " that would not surprise me at all.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3058.48,
    "end": 3061.0800000000004,
    "text": " It is funny to look at our evolutionary history,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3061.0800000000004,
    "end": 3062.44,
    "text": " even back to chimps.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3062.44,
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    "text": " thought they understood the world well.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3066.4,
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    "text": " So at every point in that timeline",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3069.34,
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    "text": " of evolutionary development throughout human history,",
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    "start": 3072.92,
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    "text": " there's a sense like there's no more,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3075.6400000000003,
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    "text": " you hear this message over and over,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3077.08,
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    "text": " there's no more things to be invented.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3079.44,
    "end": 3081.36,
    "text": " But a hundred years ago, there were,",
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    "start": 3081.36,
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    "text": " there's a famous story, I forget which physicist told it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3085.0,
    "end": 3090.0,
    "text": " but there were physicists telling their undergraduate students",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3091.12,
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    "text": " not to go into, to get graduate degrees in physics",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3094.32,
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    "text": " because basically all the problems had been solved.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3096.6800000000003,
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    "text": " And this is like around 1915 or so.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3100.2000000000003,
    "end": 3101.36,
    "text": " Turns out you were right.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " I'm gonna ask you about free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3103.52,
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    "text": " Okay.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3104.88,
    "end": 3108.32,
    "text": " You've recently released an episode of your podcast",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 3108.32,
    "end": 3111.6400000000003,
    "text": " making sense for those with a shorter attention span,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3111.6400000000003,
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    "text": " basically summarizing your position on free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3114.0800000000004,
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    "text": " I think it was under an hour and a half.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3116.32,
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    "text": " Yeah, yeah.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3117.1600000000003,
    "end": 3120.6000000000004,
    "text": " It was brief and clear.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3121.88,
    "end": 3125.38,
    "text": " So allow me to summarize the summary TLDR,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 3125.38,
    "end": 3127.46,
    "text": " and maybe you tell me where I'm wrong.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3128.44,
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    "text": " So free will is an illusion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " and even the experience of free will is an illusion.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Like we don't even experience it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3137.46,
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    "text": " Am I good in my summary?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3140.9,
    "end": 3145.9,
    "text": " Yeah, this is a line that's a little hard to scan for people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I say that it's not merely that free will is an illusion.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " The illusion of free will is an illusion, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3155.18,
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    "text": " Like there is no illusion of free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And that is unlike many other illusions,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3162.34,
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    "text": " that's a more fundamental claim.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3167.18,
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    "text": " It's not that it's wrong, it's not even wrong.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3169.56,
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    "text": " I mean, that's, I guess those, I think Wolfgang Pauli",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3172.26,
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    "text": " who derided one of his colleagues or enemies",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " with that aspersion about his theory in quantum mechanics.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3186.94,
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    "text": " So there are things that, there are genuine illusions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3189.86,
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    "text": " There are things that you do experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and then you can kind of punch through that experience.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Or you can't actually experience,",
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    "start": 3197.78,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's just, we just know it's not a veridical experience.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3204.1400000000003,
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    "text": " You just take like a visual illusion.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3205.42,
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    "text": " There are visual illusions that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3206.98,
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    "text": " a lot of these come to me on Twitter these days.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3208.78,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3211.06,
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    "text": " where like every figure in this GIF seems to be moving,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3216.44,
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    "text": " but nothing in fact is moving.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3217.78,
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    "text": " You can just like put a ruler on your screen",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3219.3,
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    "text": " and nothing's moving.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3222.34,
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    "text": " Some of those illusions you can't see any other way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3224.5800000000004,
    "end": 3226.92,
    "text": " I mean, they're just, they're hacking aspects",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "end": 3229.92,
    "text": " of the visual system that are just eminently hackable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3229.92,
    "end": 3234.42,
    "text": " And you have to use a ruler to convince yourself",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3234.42,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3236.5400000000004,
    "end": 3237.9,
    "text": " Now there are other visual illusions",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3237.9,
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    "text": " where you're taken in by it at first,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3241.2200000000003,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3242.6200000000003,
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    "text": " you can actually see that it's not there, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3245.34,
    "end": 3247.6600000000003,
    "text": " Or it's not how it first seemed.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3248.2599999999998,
    "end": 3250.24,
    "text": " Like the Necker cube is a good example of that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3250.24,
    "end": 3253.3399999999997,
    "text": " Like the Necker cube is just that schematic of a cube,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3253.3399999999997,
    "end": 3256.3799999999997,
    "text": " the transparent cube, which pops out one way or the other.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 3256.3799999999997,
    "end": 3258.98,
    "text": " One face can pop out and then the other face can pop out.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3258.98,
    "end": 3262.22,
    "text": " But you can actually just see it as flat with no pop out,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3262.22,
    "end": 3266.18,
    "text": " which is a more veridical way of looking at it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3267.98,
    "end": 3269.98,
    "text": " So there are subject,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3269.98,
    "end": 3272.3799999999997,
    "text": " there are kind of inward correlates to this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3272.3799999999997,
    "end": 3274.8399999999997,
    "text": " And I would say that the,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3277.7799999999997,
    "end": 3278.7799999999997,
    "text": " the sense of self,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 3278.7799999999997,
    "end": 3280.74,
    "text": " a sense of self and free will are closely related.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 3280.74,
    "end": 3283.54,
    "text": " I mean, I often describe them as two signs of the same coin,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3283.54,
    "end": 3288.54,
    "text": " but they're not quite the same in their spuriousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 3289.3399999999997,
    "end": 3292.5,
    "text": " I mean, so the sense of self is something that people,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3292.5,
    "end": 3294.62,
    "text": " I think do experience, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3294.62,
    "end": 3298.42,
    "text": " It's not a very clear experience, but it's not,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3298.42,
    "end": 3300.98,
    "text": " I wouldn't call the illusion of self an illusion,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3300.98,
    "end": 3303.8199999999997,
    "text": " but the illusion of free will is an illusion in that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3303.8199999999997,
    "end": 3307.3599999999997,
    "text": " as you pay more attention to your experience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3307.38,
    "end": 3310.56,
    "text": " you begin to see that it's totally compatible",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3310.56,
    "end": 3311.88,
    "text": " with an absence of free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3311.88,
    "end": 3313.32,
    "text": " You don't, and they come into the back",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3313.32,
    "end": 3314.7000000000003,
    "text": " to the place we started.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3315.7400000000002,
    "end": 3318.56,
    "text": " You don't know what you're gonna think next.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3318.56,
    "end": 3320.38,
    "text": " You don't know what you're gonna intend next.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3320.38,
    "end": 3323.48,
    "text": " You don't know what's going to just occur to you",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3323.48,
    "end": 3324.6,
    "text": " that you must do next.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3324.6,
    "end": 3328.1600000000003,
    "text": " You don't know how much you're going to feel",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3328.1600000000003,
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    "text": " the behavioral imperative to act on that thought.",
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  {
    "start": 3331.7200000000003,
    "end": 3335.4,
    "text": " If you suddenly feel, oh, I don't need to do that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3335.4,
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    "text": " I can do that tomorrow.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3336.8,
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    "text": " You don't know where that comes from.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3338.1600000000003,
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    "text": " You didn't know that was gonna arise.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3339.7200000000003,
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    "text": " You didn't know that was gonna be compelling.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3341.6800000000003,
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    "text": " All of this is compatible with some evil genius",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3344.2000000000003,
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    "text": " in the next room, just typing in code into your experience.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3348.0800000000004,
    "end": 3350.0,
    "text": " Just like this, okay, let's give him the,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3351.28,
    "end": 3354.0,
    "text": " oh my God, I just forgot it was gonna be our anniversary",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3354.0,
    "end": 3356.1600000000003,
    "text": " in one week thought, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3356.1600000000003,
    "end": 3358.0600000000004,
    "text": " Give him the cascade of fear.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3359.6800000000003,
    "end": 3361.6800000000003,
    "text": " Give him this brilliant idea for the thing he can buy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3361.6800000000003,
    "end": 3362.94,
    "text": " that's gonna take him no time at all",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3362.94,
    "end": 3365.36,
    "text": " in this overpowering sense of relief.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3365.96,
    "end": 3368.1200000000003,
    "text": " Our experience is compatible",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3368.1200000000003,
    "end": 3371.76,
    "text": " with the script already being written, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3371.76,
    "end": 3373.04,
    "text": " And I'm not saying the script is written.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3373.04,
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    "text": " I'm not saying that fatalism is the right way",
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  {
    "start": 3377.4,
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    "text": " to look at this, but we just don't have",
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  {
    "start": 3380.2400000000002,
    "end": 3383.5,
    "text": " even our most deliberate voluntary action",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3383.5,
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    "text": " where we go back and forth between two options.",
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  {
    "start": 3387.1400000000003,
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    "text": " Thinking about the reason for A and then reconsidering",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3389.92,
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    "text": " and going, thinking harder about B",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3393.44,
    "end": 3395.44,
    "text": " and just going eeny, meeny, miny, moe",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3395.44,
    "end": 3398.04,
    "text": " until the end of the hour.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3398.04,
    "end": 3400.38,
    "text": " However laborious you can make it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3400.38,
    "end": 3404.56,
    "text": " there is a utter mystery at your back",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3404.56,
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    "text": " finally promoting the thought or intention",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3409.0,
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    "text": " or rationale that is most compelling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3413.92,
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    "text": " and therefore deliberately,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3417.48,
    "end": 3422.2400000000002,
    "text": " behaviorally effective.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3422.2400000000002,
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    "text": " And this can drive some people a little crazy.",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3429.36,
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    "text": " So I usually preface what I say about free will",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3433.8,
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    "text": " with the caveat that if thinking about your mind this way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3437.34,
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    "text": " makes you feel terrible, well then stop,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3439.7200000000003,
    "end": 3442.5000000000005,
    "text": " you get off the ride, switch to the channel,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3442.5000000000005,
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    "text": " you don't have to go down this path.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3444.6400000000003,
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    "text": " But for me and for many other people,",
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  {
    "start": 3447.6000000000004,
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    "text": " it's incredibly freeing to recognize this about the mind",
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  {
    "start": 3452.2000000000003,
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    "text": " because one, you realize that you're,",
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  {
    "start": 3458.2400000000002,
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    "text": " cutting through the illusion of the self",
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  {
    "start": 3460.0000000000005,
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    "text": " is immensely freeing for a lot of reasons",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3461.88,
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    "text": " that we can talk about separately.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " But losing the sense of free will",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3468.5600000000004,
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    "text": " does two things very vividly for me.",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3471.6000000000004,
    "end": 3474.84,
    "text": " One is it totally undercuts the basis for,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3474.84,
    "end": 3476.6800000000003,
    "text": " the psychological basis for hatred.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3476.6800000000003,
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    "text": " Because when you think about the experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " of hating other people, what that is anchored to",
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    "start": 3483.62,
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    "text": " is a feeling that they really are",
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  {
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    "text": " the true authors of their actions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3488.72,
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    "text": " I mean, someone is doing something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3490.9,
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    "text": " that you find so despicable, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3493.3199999999997,
    "end": 3495.96,
    "text": " And let's say they're targeting you unfairly, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3495.96,
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    "text": " They're maligning you on Twitter or they're suing you",
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    "start": 3500.2799999999997,
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    "text": " or they're doing something, they broke your car window,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3502.92,
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    "text": " they did something awful",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3504.72,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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  {
    "start": 3510.0800000000004,
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    "text": " in your own mind than you would",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3512.44,
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    "text": " if a force of nature had done this, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3514.6000000000004,
    "end": 3516.8,
    "text": " Or if it had just been a virus",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3516.8,
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    "text": " or if it had been a wild animal or a malfunctioning machine.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3520.8,
    "end": 3522.3,
    "text": " Like to those things, you don't attribute",
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  {
    "start": 3522.3,
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    "text": " any kind of freedom of will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3524.2400000000002,
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    "text": " And while you may suffer the consequences",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3527.0400000000004,
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    "text": " of catching a virus or being attacked by a wild animal",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3530.0000000000005,
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    "text": " or having your car break down or whatever,",
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  {
    "start": 3533.2000000000003,
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    "text": " it may frustrate you.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3535.98,
    "end": 3540.98,
    "text": " You don't slip into this mode of hating the agent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3541.22,
    "end": 3546.22,
    "text": " in a way that completely commandeers your mind",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3546.7400000000002,
    "end": 3547.78,
    "text": " and deranges your life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3547.78,
    "end": 3548.7,
    "text": " I mean, you just don't, I mean,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3548.7,
    "end": 3553.26,
    "text": " there are people who spend decades hating other people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3553.26,
    "end": 3558.26,
    "text": " for what they did and it's just pure poison.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3558.54,
    "end": 3560.9,
    "text": " So it's a useful shortcut to compassion and empathy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3560.9,
    "end": 3561.7400000000002,
    "text": " Yeah, yeah.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3561.7400000000002,
    "end": 3564.86,
    "text": " But the question is, say that this call,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3565.1800000000003,
    "end": 3566.8,
    "text": " what was it, the horse of consciousness?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3566.8,
    "end": 3570.7000000000003,
    "text": " Let's call it the consciousness generator black box",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3570.7000000000003,
    "end": 3572.56,
    "text": " that we don't understand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3572.56,
    "end": 3577.56,
    "text": " And is it possible that the script that we're walking along,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3579.3,
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    "text": " that we're playing, that's already written,",
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  },
  {
    "start": 3582.08,
    "end": 3585.2200000000003,
    "text": " is actually being written in real time?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3585.2200000000003,
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    "text": " It's almost like you're driving down a road",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3587.7200000000003,
    "end": 3590.9,
    "text": " and in real time that road is being laid down.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3590.9,
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    "text": " And this black box of consciousness",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3592.7000000000003,
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    "text": " that we don't understand is the place",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3594.82,
    "end": 3597.1000000000004,
    "text": " where the script is being generated.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3597.1000000000004,
    "end": 3601.2200000000003,
    "text": " So it's not, it is being generated, it didn't always exist.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3601.2200000000003,
    "end": 3602.82,
    "text": " So there's something we don't understand",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3602.82,
    "end": 3605.5400000000004,
    "text": " that's fundamental about the nature of reality",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3605.5400000000004,
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    "text": " that generates both consciousness,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3607.5800000000004,
    "end": 3609.9,
    "text": " let's call it maybe the self.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3609.9,
    "end": 3611.6200000000003,
    "text": " I don't know if you want to distinguish between those.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3611.6200000000003,
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    "text": " Yeah, I definitely would, yeah.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3613.0600000000004,
    "end": 3614.1800000000003,
    "text": " You would?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3614.1800000000003,
    "end": 3616.38,
    "text": " Because there's a bunch of illusions we're referring to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3616.38,
    "end": 3618.26,
    "text": " There's the illusion of free will,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3618.26,
    "end": 3620.3,
    "text": " there's the illusion of self,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3620.3,
    "end": 3622.4600000000005,
    "text": " and there's the illusion of consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3622.54,
    "end": 3625.9,
    "text": " You're saying, I think you said there's no,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3625.9,
    "end": 3627.1,
    "text": " you're not as willing to say",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3627.1,
    "end": 3628.86,
    "text": " there's an illusion of consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3628.86,
    "end": 3629.7,
    "text": " You're a little bit more-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3629.7,
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    "text": " In fact, I would say it's impossible.",
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  {
    "start": 3630.94,
    "end": 3631.78,
    "text": " Impossible.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3631.78,
    "end": 3633.32,
    "text": " You're a little bit more willing to say",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3633.32,
    "end": 3635.6,
    "text": " that there's an illusion of self,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3635.6,
    "end": 3637.02,
    "text": " and you're definitely saying",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3637.02,
    "end": 3638.66,
    "text": " there's an illusion of free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3638.66,
    "end": 3642.14,
    "text": " Yes, and I'm definitely saying there's an illusion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3642.14,
    "end": 3644.14,
    "text": " that a certain kind of self is an illusion,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3644.14,
    "end": 3646.42,
    "text": " not every, we mean many different things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3646.42,
    "end": 3648.06,
    "text": " by this notion of self.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3648.06,
    "end": 3650.6,
    "text": " So maybe I should just differentiate these things.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3650.6,
    "end": 3653.08,
    "text": " So consciousness can't be an illusion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3653.08,
    "end": 3658.08,
    "text": " because any illusion proves its reality",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3658.16,
    "end": 3660.52,
    "text": " as much as any other veridical perception.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3660.52,
    "end": 3662.64,
    "text": " I mean, if you're hallucinating now,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3662.64,
    "end": 3665.72,
    "text": " that's just as much of a demonstration of consciousness",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3665.72,
    "end": 3669.7599999999998,
    "text": " as really seeing what's a quote actually there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3669.7599999999998,
    "end": 3673.0,
    "text": " If you're dreaming and you don't know it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3673.0,
    "end": 3675.08,
    "text": " that is consciousness, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3675.08,
    "end": 3677.7999999999997,
    "text": " If you're, you can be confused about literally everything.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3677.8,
    "end": 3682.8,
    "text": " You can't be confused about the underlying claim,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3685.28,
    "end": 3687.6400000000003,
    "text": " whether you make it linguistically or not,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3687.6400000000003,
    "end": 3692.6400000000003,
    "text": " but just the cognitive assertion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3694.78,
    "end": 3697.04,
    "text": " that something seems to be happening.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3697.04,
    "end": 3700.52,
    "text": " It's the seeming that is the cash value of consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 3700.52,
    "end": 3702.0800000000004,
    "text": " Can I take a tiny tangent?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3702.0800000000004,
    "end": 3707.0800000000004,
    "text": " So what if I am creating consciousness in my mind",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3707.72,
    "end": 3710.16,
    "text": " to convince you that I'm human?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3710.16,
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    "text": " So it's a useful social tool,",
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  {
    "start": 3712.6,
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    "text": " not a fundamental property of experience,",
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  {
    "start": 3718.0,
    "end": 3720.84,
    "text": " like of being a living thing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3720.84,
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    "text": " What if it's just like a social tool",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3722.7599999999998,
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    "text": " to almost like a useful computational trick",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3727.64,
    "end": 3730.64,
    "text": " to place myself into reality",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " as we together communicate about this reality.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3734.16,
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    "text": " And another way to ask that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3736.04,
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    "text": " because you said it much earlier,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3738.6,
    "end": 3741.4,
    "text": " you talk negatively about robots as you often do.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " So let me, cause you'll probably die first",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 3744.4,
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    "text": " when they take over.",
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    "start": 3746.36,
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    "text": " No, I'm looking forward to certain kinds of robots.",
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    "text": " I mean, I'm not, if we can get this right,",
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    "text": " this would be amazing.",
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    "text": " But you don't like the robots that fake consciousness.",
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    "text": " That's what you, you don't like the idea of fake",
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    "text": " until you make it.",
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    "start": 3757.92,
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    "text": " Well, no, it's not that I don't like it,",
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    "text": " of the problem.",
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    "start": 3764.32,
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    "text": " And the problem has massive ethical consequences.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3767.4,
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    "text": " If we create robots that really can suffer,",
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  {
    "start": 3772.0,
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    "text": " that would be a bad thing, right?",
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    "start": 3773.7200000000003,
    "end": 3776.52,
    "text": " And if we really are committing a murder",
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    "start": 3776.52,
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    "text": " when we recycle them, that would be a bad thing.",
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    "start": 3779.04,
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    "text": " This is how I know you're not Russian.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3780.32,
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    "text": " Why is it a bad thing that we create robots that can suffer?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3783.32,
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    "text": " Isn't suffering a fundamental thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 3785.32,
    "end": 3787.28,
    "text": " from which like beauty springs?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3787.28,
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    "text": " Like without suffering,",
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  {
    "start": 3788.6400000000003,
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    "text": " do you really think we would have",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
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    "text": " beautiful things in this world?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 3791.76,
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    "text": " Okay, well, that's a tangent on a tangent.",
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  {
    "start": 3794.8799999999997,
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    "text": " We'll go there, I would love to go there,",
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    "start": 3796.04,
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    "start": 3797.6,
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  {
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    "text": " we can name if you create it.",
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    "text": " I mean, this could be in robot form,",
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    "text": " And that world is a state of, you know,",
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  {
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    "text": " that's unendurable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " That would just, it just taking the thesis seriously",
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  {
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  {
    "start": 3839.1600000000003,
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    "text": " ultimately are substrate independent, right?",
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    "text": " It doesn't, you don't need a biological brain",
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    "text": " to be conscious.",
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  {
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    "text": " to be intelligent, right?",
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    "text": " So if we just imagine the consciousness at some point",
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    "text": " well, then we could find ourselves creating conscious minds",
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    "text": " that are miserable, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3857.24,
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    "text": " And that's just like creating a person who's miserable, right?",
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    "text": " It could be worse than creating a person who's miserable.",
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  {
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  {
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    "text": " Cloning them and maybe for entertainment,",
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    "text": " watching them suffer.",
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  {
    "start": 3871.7599999999998,
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    "text": " you know?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3872.7599999999998,
    "end": 3876.12,
    "text": " So, but back to your primary question here,",
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    "text": " which is differentiating consciousness and self",
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    "text": " and free will as concepts",
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    "text": " and Dan, this is where Dan Dennett",
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    "text": " is gonna get off the ride here, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 3897.6,
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    "text": " So like he doesn't, he's gonna disagree with me",
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    "text": " and seeing people get wrapped around the axle of it",
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    "text": " and then to no longer feel that way, right?",
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    "start": 3923.48,
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    "text": " cognitively and emotionally,",
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    "text": " not merely identical to experience.",
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    "text": " There's a protagonist in the movie of your life",
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    "text": " and it is you, it's not just the movie, right?",
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    "text": " It's like there are sights and sounds",
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    "text": " and this whole cacophony of experience,",
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    "text": " But there seems to be a rider on the horse",
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    "start": 3986.14,
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    "text": " or a passenger in the body, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 3988.44,
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    "text": " People don't feel truly identical",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " to their bodies down to their toes.",
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    "text": " And again, this gets very paradoxical",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Like why do you need the pep talk and why does it work?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " If you're the one giving the pep talk, right?",
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    "text": " Or if I said, like, where are my keys?",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " why do I think the superfluous thought, where are my keys?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4031.46,
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    "text": " that we now need to look for the keys, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4033.92,
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    "text": " So that duality is weird, but leave that aside.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " There's the sense, and this becomes very vivid",
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    "text": " when people try to learn to meditate.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Most people, they start by, they close their eyes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4048.78,
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    "text": " and they're told to pay attention to an object",
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    "start": 4050.6600000000003,
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    "text": " like the breath, say.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So you close your eyes and you pay attention to the breath",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4055.34,
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    "text": " and you can feel it at the tip of your nose",
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    "text": " or the rising and falling of your abdomen",
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    "text": " and you feel something vague there.",
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    "start": 4142.46,
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    "text": " you didn't produce that either.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " the experiences of all those free will.",
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    "start": 4367.22,
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    "text": " in that way where it's like ideas are just using us?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 4376.56,
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    "text": " and they're just jumping around,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 4381.5,
    "end": 4383.64,
    "text": " so that we can push those ideas along?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 4383.64,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " not the humans.",
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    "start": 4389.06,
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    "start": 4391.860000000001,
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    "text": " between self and world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4395.22,
    "end": 4396.06,
    "text": " Right.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4396.06,
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    "text": " So then there's no self, really integrated self",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " to have any kind of will at all.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Like if you're just a meme plex,",
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    "text": " I mean, if you're just a collection of memes,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and I mean, we're all kind of like currents,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4412.06,
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    "text": " like eddies in this river of ideas, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So it's like, and it seems to have structure,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " between that part of the flow of water and the rest.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And I would say that much of our mind answers",
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    "text": " to this kind of description.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I mean, so much of our mind has been,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " it's obviously not self-generated,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4435.4800000000005,
    "end": 4438.1,
    "text": " and you're not gonna find it by looking in the brain.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It is the result of culture largely,",
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    "text": " It was just, the example I often use here,",
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    "start": 4486.900000000001,
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    "start": 4492.66,
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    "text": " We haven't studied this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4494.5,
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    "start": 4497.860000000001,
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    "start": 4511.34,
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    "text": " I mean, these are not things we've invented.",
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    "text": " if you served dog.",
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    "text": " of what is, you know, really a cocker spaniel,",
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    "start": 4597.38,
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    "text": " and you feel this instantaneous urge to vomit, right,",
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    "start": 4603.0599999999995,
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    "text": " based on an idea, right?",
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    "text": " you know, vaguely where it sort of got in.",
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    "text": " that would be a different experience.",
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    "text": " you still have to admit that there's a difference",
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    "text": " because it's a hologram, I would be surprised, right?",
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    "text": " even before it happens.",
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    "text": " you don't have the same kind of thing going on.",
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    "text": " my intention to move,",
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    "text": " really is the proximate cause of my moving.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's not coming from elsewhere in the universe.",
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    "text": " I'm not saying that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " to execute the subroutine now,",
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    "text": " but that's not the feeling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that has given rise to this conundrum of free will, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So people feel like crucial things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4800.900000000001,
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    "text": " that people feel like they could have done otherwise, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4804.3,
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    "text": " That's the thing that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 4805.860000000001,
    "end": 4809.5,
    "text": " so when you run back the clock of your life, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4809.5,
    "end": 4811.26,
    "text": " You run back the movie of your life,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4811.26,
    "end": 4814.64,
    "text": " you flip back the few pages in the novel of your life,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " they feel that at this point,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 4818.04,
    "end": 4820.84,
    "text": " they could behave differently than they did, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4820.84,
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    "text": " So like, but given,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4823.240000000001,
    "end": 4825.88,
    "text": " even given your distributed computing example,",
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    "start": 4827.76,
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    "text": " it's either a fully deterministic system",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4830.4800000000005,
    "end": 4832.12,
    "text": " or it's a deterministic system",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4832.12,
    "end": 4836.240000000001,
    "text": " that admits of some random influence.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 4836.240000000001,
    "end": 4837.780000000001,
    "text": " In either case,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4839.56,
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    "text": " that's not the free will people think they have.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4841.88,
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    "text": " The free will people think they have",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4843.16,
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    "text": " is damn, I shouldn't have done that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 4846.5599999999995,
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    "text": " I just like, I shouldn't have done that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "end": 4851.44,
    "text": " I could have done otherwise, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4851.44,
    "end": 4852.72,
    "text": " I should have done otherwise, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4852.72,
    "end": 4855.4,
    "text": " Like if you think about something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4855.4,
    "end": 4857.66,
    "text": " that you deeply regret doing, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4857.66,
    "end": 4860.86,
    "text": " Or that you hold someone else responsible for,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4860.86,
    "end": 4863.32,
    "text": " because they really are the upstream agent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4863.32,
    "end": 4865.639999999999,
    "text": " in your mind of what they did.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4865.639999999999,
    "end": 4868.12,
    "text": " You know, that's an awful thing that that person did",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4868.12,
    "end": 4869.68,
    "text": " and they shouldn't have done it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4870.68,
    "end": 4872.96,
    "text": " There is this illusion and it has to be an illusion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4873.04,
    "end": 4877.16,
    "text": " because there's no picture of causation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4877.16,
    "end": 4879.0,
    "text": " that would make sense of it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4879.0,
    "end": 4881.96,
    "text": " There's this illusion that if you arrange the universe",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4881.96,
    "end": 4884.52,
    "text": " exactly the way it was a moment ago,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4884.52,
    "end": 4887.08,
    "text": " it could have played out differently.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4887.08,
    "end": 4891.66,
    "text": " And the only way it could have played out differently",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4891.66,
    "end": 4894.88,
    "text": " is if there's randomness added to that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4894.88,
    "end": 4897.9,
    "text": " but randomness isn't what people feel",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4897.9,
    "end": 4899.44,
    "text": " would give them free will, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4899.44,
    "end": 4901.24,
    "text": " If you tell me that, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4901.48,
    "end": 4904.04,
    "text": " I only reached for the water bottle this time",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4904.04,
    "end": 4907.12,
    "text": " because there's a random number generator in there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4907.12,
    "end": 4911.26,
    "text": " kicking off values and it finally moved my hand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4911.26,
    "end": 4914.12,
    "text": " That's not the feeling of authorship.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4914.12,
    "end": 4915.719999999999,
    "text": " That's still not control.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4915.719999999999,
    "end": 4918.2,
    "text": " You're still not making that decision.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4918.2,
    "end": 4920.599999999999,
    "text": " There's actually, I don't know if you're familiar",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4920.599999999999,
    "end": 4921.8,
    "text": " with cellular automata.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4921.8,
    "end": 4925.099999999999,
    "text": " It's a really nice visualization of how simple rules",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4925.099999999999,
    "end": 4929.16,
    "text": " can create incredible complexity that it's like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4929.16,
    "end": 4931.08,
    "text": " really dumb initial conditions are set,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4931.08,
    "end": 4935.04,
    "text": " simple rules applied, and eventually you watch this thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4935.04,
    "end": 4938.72,
    "text": " and if the initial conditions are correct,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4938.72,
    "end": 4941.44,
    "text": " then you're going to have emerged something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4941.44,
    "end": 4943.28,
    "text": " that to our perception system",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4943.28,
    "end": 4945.5199999999995,
    "text": " looks like organisms interacting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4945.5199999999995,
    "end": 4947.2,
    "text": " You can construct any kinds of worlds",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4947.2,
    "end": 4949.88,
    "text": " and they're not actually interacting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4949.88,
    "end": 4952.08,
    "text": " They're not actually even organisms.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4952.08,
    "end": 4955.0,
    "text": " And they certainly aren't making decisions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4955.0,
    "end": 4957.2,
    "text": " So there's like systems you can create",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4957.2,
    "end": 4958.639999999999,
    "text": " that illustrate this point.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4958.660000000001,
    "end": 4963.660000000001,
    "text": " The question is whether there could be some room for,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4964.04,
    "end": 4967.5,
    "text": " let's use in the 21st century the term magic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4967.5,
    "end": 4970.280000000001,
    "text": " back to the black box of consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4970.280000000001,
    "end": 4971.92,
    "text": " Let me ask it this way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4971.92,
    "end": 4976.4400000000005,
    "text": " If you're wrong about your intuition about free will,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 4976.4400000000005,
    "end": 4980.1,
    "text": " what, and somebody comes along to you and proves to you",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4980.1,
    "end": 4983.360000000001,
    "text": " that you didn't have the full picture,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4983.360000000001,
    "end": 4984.96,
    "text": " what would that proof look like?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4984.96,
    "end": 4985.8,
    "text": " What would-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 4986.04,
    "end": 4986.860000000001,
    "text": " That's the problem.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4986.860000000001,
    "end": 4989.68,
    "text": " That's why it's not even an illusion in my world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4989.68,
    "end": 4994.52,
    "text": " because for me, it's impossible to say",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4994.52,
    "end": 4996.92,
    "text": " what the universe would have to be like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 4996.92,
    "end": 4998.92,
    "text": " for free will to be a thing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 4998.92,
    "end": 5000.92,
    "text": " It's just, it doesn't conceptually map on",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5000.92,
    "end": 5004.76,
    "text": " to any notion of causation we have.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5004.76,
    "end": 5009.4800000000005,
    "text": " And that's unlike any other spurious claim you might make.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5009.4800000000005,
    "end": 5013.8,
    "text": " So like if you're going to believe in ghosts, right,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5014.76,
    "end": 5017.96,
    "text": " I understand what that claim could be.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5017.96,
    "end": 5020.24,
    "text": " Or like, I don't happen to believe in ghosts,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5020.24,
    "end": 5024.360000000001,
    "text": " but if it's not hard for me to specify",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5024.360000000001,
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    "text": " what would have to be true for ghosts to be real.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5027.400000000001,
    "end": 5030.12,
    "text": " And so it is with a thousand other things like ghosts.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5030.12,
    "end": 5032.12,
    "text": " Right, so like, okay, so you're telling me",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5032.12,
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    "text": " that when people die, there's some part of them",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that is not reducible at all to their biology",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5037.52,
    "end": 5040.68,
    "text": " that lifts off them and goes elsewhere.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5040.68,
    "end": 5042.24,
    "text": " And it's actually the kind of thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5042.24,
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    "text": " they can linger in closets and in cupboards",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5044.719999999999,
    "end": 5047.679999999999,
    "text": " and actually it's immaterial,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5047.679999999999,
    "end": 5049.28,
    "text": " but by some principle of physics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5049.28,
    "end": 5051.679999999999,
    "text": " we don't totally understand it can make sounds",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5051.679999999999,
    "end": 5055.9,
    "text": " and knock objects and even occasionally show up",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5055.9,
    "end": 5057.54,
    "text": " so they can be visually beheld.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5058.96,
    "end": 5061.76,
    "text": " And it's just, it seems like a miracle,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5061.76,
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    "text": " but it's just some spooky noun in the universe",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5065.639999999999,
    "end": 5067.24,
    "text": " that we don't understand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5067.24,
    "end": 5068.28,
    "text": " Let's call it a ghost.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5069.5199999999995,
    "end": 5072.0,
    "text": " That's fine, I can talk about that all day,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5072.64,
    "end": 5073.48,
    "text": " the reasons to believe in it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5073.48,
    "end": 5074.32,
    "text": " the reasons not to believe in it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5074.32,
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    "text": " the way we would scientifically test for it,",
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    "text": " what would have to be provable so as to convince me",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that ghosts are real.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Free will isn't like that at all.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " There's no description of any concatenation of causes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "end": 5092.16,
    "text": " that precedes my conscious experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5093.04,
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    "text": " that sounds like what people think they have",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5095.36,
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    "text": " when they think they could have done otherwise",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5097.0,
    "end": 5100.2,
    "text": " and that they really, that they, the conscious agent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5100.2,
    "end": 5101.74,
    "text": " is really in charge.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5102.0599999999995,
    "end": 5105.34,
    "text": " If you don't know what you're going to think next",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 5105.34,
    "end": 5107.46,
    "text": " and you can't help but think it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5109.7,
    "end": 5112.86,
    "text": " take those two premises on board,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5112.86,
    "end": 5114.78,
    "text": " you don't know what it's gonna be,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5114.78,
    "end": 5118.24,
    "text": " you can't stop it from coming",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5118.24,
    "end": 5121.82,
    "text": " and until you actually know how to meditate,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5121.82,
    "end": 5125.82,
    "text": " you can't stop yourself from fully living out",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5128.4,
    "end": 5131.5,
    "text": " its behavioral or emotional consequences.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5132.42,
    "end": 5136.66,
    "text": " Once mindfulness arguably gives you",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5136.66,
    "end": 5138.46,
    "text": " another degree of freedom here,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5138.46,
    "end": 5139.36,
    "text": " it doesn't give you free will,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5139.36,
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    "text": " but it gives you some other game to play",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5141.2,
    "end": 5144.58,
    "text": " with respect to the emotional and behavioral",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5144.58,
    "end": 5146.3,
    "text": " imperatives of thoughts.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5146.3,
    "end": 5150.42,
    "text": " But short of that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5150.42,
    "end": 5152.26,
    "text": " the reason why mindfulness doesn't give you free will",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5152.26,
    "end": 5155.62,
    "text": " is because you can't account for why in one moment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5155.62,
    "end": 5160.1,
    "text": " mindfulness arises and in other moments it doesn't, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 5160.1,
    "end": 5163.58,
    "text": " But a different process is initiated",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5163.58,
    "end": 5166.9400000000005,
    "text": " once you can practice in that way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5166.9400000000005,
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    "text": " Well, if I could push back for a second,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5168.9400000000005,
    "end": 5171.22,
    "text": " by the way, I just have this thought bubble",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5171.22,
    "end": 5174.18,
    "text": " popping up all the time of just two recent chimps",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 5174.18,
    "end": 5176.820000000001,
    "text": " arguing about the nature of consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5176.820000000001,
    "end": 5177.9400000000005,
    "text": " It's kind of hilarious.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5177.9400000000005,
    "end": 5179.660000000001,
    "text": " So on that thread,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5181.5,
    "end": 5182.9400000000005,
    "text": " if we're even before Einstein,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 5182.9400000000005,
    "end": 5184.42,
    "text": " let's say before Einstein,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5184.42,
    "end": 5187.14,
    "text": " we were to conceive about traveling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5187.14,
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    "text": " from point A to point B.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 5190.22,
    "end": 5192.46,
    "text": " Say some point in the future,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5192.46,
    "end": 5194.9800000000005,
    "text": " we are able to realize through engineering",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 5194.9800000000005,
    "end": 5199.42,
    "text": " a way which is consistent with Einstein's theory",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5199.42,
    "end": 5200.42,
    "text": " that you can have wormholes.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5200.42,
    "end": 5202.820000000001,
    "text": " You can travel from one point to another",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5202.820000000001,
    "end": 5204.46,
    "text": " faster than the speed of light.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5206.3,
    "end": 5209.5,
    "text": " And that would, I think, completely change our conception",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5209.5,
    "end": 5212.9400000000005,
    "text": " of what it means to travel in the physical space.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5212.9400000000005,
    "end": 5217.46,
    "text": " And that completely transform our ability.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5217.46,
    "end": 5218.660000000001,
    "text": " You talk about causality,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5218.66,
    "end": 5221.34,
    "text": " but here let's just focus on what it means",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5221.34,
    "end": 5223.42,
    "text": " to travel through physical space.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5223.42,
    "end": 5228.18,
    "text": " Don't you think it's possible that there will be inventions",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5228.18,
    "end": 5231.34,
    "text": " or leaps in understanding about reality",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5231.34,
    "end": 5236.0199999999995,
    "text": " that will allow us to see free will as actually,",
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  {
    "start": 5236.0199999999995,
    "end": 5239.38,
    "text": " like us humans somehow may be linked",
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    "start": 5239.38,
    "end": 5241.42,
    "text": " to this idea of consciousness,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5241.42,
    "end": 5244.54,
    "text": " are actually able to be authors of our actions?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5245.54,
    "end": 5249.5,
    "text": " It is a non-starter for me conceptually.",
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    "start": 5249.5,
    "end": 5250.94,
    "text": " It's a little bit like saying,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5253.06,
    "end": 5254.42,
    "text": " could there be some breakthrough",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5254.42,
    "end": 5259.42,
    "text": " that will cause us to realize that circles are really square",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5260.18,
    "end": 5263.0199999999995,
    "text": " or that circles are not really round, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5263.0199999999995,
    "end": 5267.62,
    "text": " No, a circle is what we mean by a perfectly round form,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5267.62,
    "end": 5272.42,
    "text": " right, like it's not on the table to be revised.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5272.42,
    "end": 5274.0199999999995,
    "text": " And so I would say the same thing",
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    "start": 5274.1,
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    "text": " about consciousness is just like saying,",
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    "start": 5276.700000000001,
    "end": 5280.1,
    "text": " is there some breakthrough that would get us to realize",
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  {
    "start": 5280.1,
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    "text": " that consciousness is really an illusion?",
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  {
    "start": 5282.740000000001,
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    "text": " I'm saying no, because what the experience of an illusion",
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    "start": 5286.620000000001,
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    "text": " is as much a demonstration",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5287.9400000000005,
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    "text": " of what I'm calling consciousness as anything else, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5289.9800000000005,
    "end": 5291.46,
    "text": " Like that is consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5292.540000000001,
    "end": 5295.42,
    "text": " With free will, it's a similar problem.",
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    "start": 5295.42,
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    "text": " It's like, again, it comes down to a picture of causality",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5300.66,
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    "text": " and there's no other picture on offer.",
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    "start": 5303.66,
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    "text": " And what's more, I know what it's like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5308.66,
    "end": 5313.66,
    "text": " on the experiential side to lose the thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5313.66,
    "end": 5316.34,
    "text": " to which it is clearly anchored, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5316.34,
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    "text": " Like the feel like it doesn't feel,",
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    "start": 5318.9800000000005,
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    "text": " and this is the question that almost nobody asked,",
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    "start": 5320.82,
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    "text": " people who are debating me on the topic of free will,",
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  {
    "start": 5324.9800000000005,
    "end": 5327.78,
    "text": " you know, at 15 minute intervals,",
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  },
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    "start": 5327.9,
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    "text": " I'm, you know, at 15 minute intervals,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5330.7,
    "end": 5333.54,
    "text": " I'm making a claim that I don't feel this thing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5333.54,
    "end": 5338.259999999999,
    "text": " and they are never become interested in,",
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    "start": 5338.259999999999,
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    "text": " well, what's that like?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5339.259999999999,
    "end": 5342.54,
    "text": " Like, okay, so you're actually saying you don't,",
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    "start": 5342.54,
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    "text": " this thing isn't, you know,",
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  {
    "start": 5344.58,
    "end": 5345.94,
    "text": " isn't true for you empirically.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5345.94,
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    "text": " It's not just, because most people",
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    "text": " who don't believe in free will philosophically",
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    "start": 5352.259999999999,
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    "text": " also believe that we're condemned to experience it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5355.18,
    "end": 5359.1,
    "text": " Like, you just, you can't live without this feeling, so.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5359.1,
    "end": 5362.46,
    "text": " So you're actually saying you're able to experience",
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    "start": 5362.46,
    "end": 5367.06,
    "text": " the absence of the illusion of free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5367.06,
    "end": 5368.1,
    "text": " Yes, yes.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5368.1,
    "end": 5372.66,
    "text": " For, are we talking about a few minutes at a time",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5372.66,
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    "text": " or is this require a lot of work and meditation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5378.06,
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    "text": " or are you literally able to load that into your mind",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5381.26,
    "end": 5382.1,
    "text": " and like play that moment?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5382.1,
    "end": 5384.700000000001,
    "text": " Right now, right now, just in this conversation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5384.7,
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    "text": " So it's not, it's not absolutely continuous,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5389.0599999999995,
    "end": 5391.66,
    "text": " but it's whenever I pay attention.",
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    "start": 5391.66,
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    "text": " It's like, it's the same thing,",
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    "start": 5393.0199999999995,
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    "text": " and I would say the same thing",
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    "start": 5393.86,
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    "text": " for the illusoryness of the self in the sense,",
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    "start": 5396.82,
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    "text": " and again, we haven't talked about this, so.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Can you still have the self and not have the free will",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5401.58,
    "end": 5402.86,
    "text": " in your mind at the same time?",
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    "start": 5402.86,
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    "text": " Do they go at the same time?",
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    "start": 5404.0199999999995,
    "end": 5406.58,
    "text": " This is the same, yeah, it's the same thing.",
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    "start": 5406.58,
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    "text": " They're always holding hands when they walk out the door.",
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    "start": 5408.82,
    "end": 5410.7,
    "text": " They really are two sides at the same point.",
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    "start": 5410.7,
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    "text": " But it's just, it comes down to what it's like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5414.3,
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    "text": " to try to get to the end of the sentence",
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    "start": 5416.58,
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    "start": 5418.9400000000005,
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    "start": 5420.42,
    "end": 5422.22,
    "text": " and now I need another sip of water, right?",
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    "start": 5422.22,
    "end": 5423.26,
    "text": " If I'm paying attention,",
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    "start": 5423.26,
    "end": 5425.06,
    "text": " now, if I'm not paying attention,",
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    "start": 5425.9,
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    "text": " I'm probably, I'm captured by some other thought",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5428.74,
    "end": 5430.74,
    "text": " and that feels a certain way, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5430.74,
    "end": 5432.3,
    "text": " And so that's not, it's not vivid,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5432.3,
    "end": 5436.5,
    "text": " but if I try to make vivid this experience of just, okay,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5436.5,
    "end": 5438.3,
    "text": " I'm finally gonna experience free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5438.3,
    "end": 5440.46,
    "text": " I'm gonna notice my free will, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5440.46,
    "end": 5441.74,
    "text": " Like it's gotta be here.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5441.74,
    "end": 5443.3,
    "text": " Everyone's talking about it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5444.02,
    "end": 5444.860000000001,
    "text": " Where is it?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5444.860000000001,
    "end": 5445.68,
    "text": " I'm gonna pay attention to it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5445.68,
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    "text": " I'm gonna look for it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5446.52,
    "end": 5448.66,
    "text": " And I'm gonna create a circumstance",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5448.66,
    "end": 5452.22,
    "text": " that is where it has to be most robust, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5452.22,
    "end": 5454.7,
    "text": " I'm not rushed to make this decision.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5454.7,
    "end": 5457.1,
    "text": " I'm not, it's not a reflex.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5457.1,
    "end": 5458.7,
    "text": " I'm not under pressure.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5458.7,
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    "start": 5459.9800000000005,
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    "text": " I'm going to decide.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5462.1,
    "end": 5463.14,
    "text": " It's not trivial.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5463.14,
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    "text": " So it's not just like reaching with my left hand",
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    "start": 5464.78,
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    "text": " to reach with my right hand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5465.72,
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    "text": " People don't like those examples for some reason.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5467.74,
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    "text": " Let's make a big decision like,",
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    "text": " where should, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5474.38,
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    "text": " what should my next podcast be on, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5476.339999999999,
    "end": 5478.58,
    "text": " Who do I invite on the next podcast?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5478.58,
    "end": 5480.58,
    "text": " What is it like to make that decision?",
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    "start": 5480.58,
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    "text": " When I pay attention,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5482.799999999999,
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    "text": " there is no evidence of free will anywhere in sight.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's like, it doesn't feel like,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5488.179999999999,
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    "text": " it feels profoundly mysterious",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5491.219999999999,
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    "text": " to be going back between two people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5493.38,
    "end": 5497.58,
    "text": " You know, like, is it gonna be person A or person B?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5497.58,
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    "text": " I've got all my reasons for A",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5499.1,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5501.3,
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    "text": " And there's some math going on there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5504.02,
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    "text": " that I'm not even privy to",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5506.4800000000005,
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    "text": " where certain concerns are trumping others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5509.42,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And yes, you can say I'm the node in the network",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that has made that decision.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Absolutely.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5517.820000000001,
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    "text": " I'm not saying it's being piped to me from elsewhere,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " but the feeling of what it's like to make that decision",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " is totally without a sense,",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " because something simply emerges.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5538.76,
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    "text": " It's literally as tenuous as,",
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    "start": 5542.4400000000005,
    "end": 5546.04,
    "text": " what's the next sound I'm going to hear, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 5546.04,
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    "text": " Or what's the next thought that's gonna appear?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5549.4800000000005,
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    "text": " And it just, something just appears, you know?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5552.36,
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    "text": " And if something appears to cancel that something,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5554.719999999999,
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    "text": " like if I say, I'm gonna invite her",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5557.799999999999,
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    "text": " and then I'm about to send the email and I think,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5559.719999999999,
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    "text": " oh, no, no, no, I can't do that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5562.599999999999,
    "end": 5565.24,
    "text": " There was a thing in that New Yorker article I read",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5565.24,
    "end": 5567.74,
    "text": " that I gotta talk to this guy, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5567.74,
    "end": 5569.78,
    "text": " That pivot at the last second,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5569.78,
    "end": 5574.0,
    "text": " you can make it as muscular as you want.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5574.0,
    "end": 5576.04,
    "text": " It always just comes out of the darkness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5576.04,
    "end": 5577.88,
    "text": " It's always mysterious.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5577.88,
    "end": 5579.44,
    "text": " So right, when you try to pin it down,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5579.44,
    "end": 5582.04,
    "text": " you really can't ever find that free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5582.88,
    "end": 5586.2,
    "text": " If you construct an experiment for yourself",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5586.2,
    "end": 5587.96,
    "text": " and you're trying to really find that moment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5587.96,
    "end": 5590.44,
    "text": " when you're actually making that controlled",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5590.44,
    "end": 5592.8,
    "text": " author decision, it's very difficult to do.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " And we're still, we're still, we know at this point",
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    "start": 5598.28,
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    "text": " in some podcast guest choosing experiment, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5604.12,
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    "text": " We know at this point, we would be privy",
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    "start": 5607.04,
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    "text": " to who you're going to pick before you are,",
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  {
    "start": 5609.54,
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    "text": " you the conscious agent.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5610.92,
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    "text": " If we could, again, this is operationally",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5613.18,
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    "text": " a little hard to conduct, but there's enough data now",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5616.12,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5619.76,
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    "text": " is in fact true and will ultimately be undeniable for people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5626.16,
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    "text": " They'll be able to do it on themselves with some app.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5631.76,
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    "text": " If you're deciding where to go for dinner",
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    "start": 5635.6,
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    "text": " or who to have on your podcast,",
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    "start": 5636.92,
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    "text": " or ultimately who to marry, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5638.92,
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    "text": " What city to move to, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5641.0,
    "end": 5643.8,
    "text": " Like you can make it as big or as small a decision",
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    "start": 5643.8,
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    "text": " as you want.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5645.6,
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    "text": " We could be scanning your brain in real time",
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    "start": 5648.0,
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    "text": " and at a point where you still think you're uncommitted,",
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    "start": 5652.58,
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    "text": " we would be able to say with arbitrary accuracy,",
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  {
    "start": 5657.06,
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    "text": " all right, Lexus, he's moving to Austin, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5660.84,
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    "text": " I didn't choose that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5661.68,
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    "text": " Yeah, he was gonna be Austin or was it gonna be Miami?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5664.8,
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    "text": " He got, he's catching one of these two waves,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5667.74,
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    "text": " but it's gonna be Austin and at a point",
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    "start": 5670.3,
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    "start": 5673.58,
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    "text": " you would say, oh no, I'm still working over here.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I'm still thinking, I'm still considering my options.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5680.74,
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    "start": 5684.099999999999,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5685.5199999999995,
    "end": 5689.94,
    "text": " it's been very useful to step away",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5689.94,
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    "text": " from this illusion of free will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5691.5,
    "end": 5694.139999999999,
    "text": " And you argue that it's probably makes a better world",
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    "start": 5694.139999999999,
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    "text": " because it can be compassionate",
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    "start": 5695.42,
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    "text": " and empathetic towards others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5696.9,
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    "text": " And toward oneself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5698.4,
    "end": 5699.24,
    "text": " And toward oneself.",
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    "start": 5699.24,
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    "text": " I mean, radically toward others",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5701.9,
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    "text": " in that literally hate makes no sense anymore.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5705.78,
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    "text": " I mean, there are certain things you can really",
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    "start": 5708.5,
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    "text": " be worried about, really want to oppose.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5711.54,
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    "text": " I'm not saying you'd never have to kill another person.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5713.82,
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    "text": " I mean, self-defense is still a thing, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5716.38,
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    "text": " But the idea that you're never confronting anything",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5722.179999999999,
    "end": 5725.54,
    "text": " other than a force of nature in the end",
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  {
    "start": 5725.54,
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    "text": " goes out the window, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5727.26,
    "end": 5729.42,
    "text": " Or does go out the window when you really pay attention.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5729.42,
    "end": 5733.42,
    "text": " I'm not saying that this would be easy to grok",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5733.42,
    "end": 5738.38,
    "text": " if someone kills a member of your family.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5738.38,
    "end": 5740.32,
    "text": " I'm not saying you can just listen to my 90 minutes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5740.32,
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    "text": " on free will and then you should be able to see",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5741.92,
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    "text": " that person as identical to a grizzly bear or a virus.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5746.58,
    "end": 5751.58,
    "text": " Because we are so evolved to deal with one another",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5752.18,
    "end": 5757.1,
    "text": " as fellow primates and as agents.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5757.98,
    "end": 5762.98,
    "text": " But it's, yeah, when you're talking about the possibility",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5762.98,
    "end": 5767.98,
    "text": " of Christian, truly Christian forgiveness, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5769.2,
    "end": 5774.2,
    "text": " Is like, as testified to by various saints",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5774.28,
    "end": 5779.28,
    "text": " of that flavor over the millennia, yeah, that is it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5786.08,
    "end": 5790.36,
    "text": " The doorway to that is to recognize that no one really",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5790.36,
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    "text": " at bottom made themselves.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5792.639999999999,
    "end": 5796.4,
    "text": " And therefore everyone, what we're seeing really",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5796.4,
    "end": 5799.16,
    "text": " are differences in luck in the world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5799.16,
    "end": 5801.88,
    "text": " We're seeing people who are very, very lucky",
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    "start": 5801.88,
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    "start": 5806.42,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5810.0599999999995,
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    "text": " Like none of it is on them.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5813.099999999999,
    "end": 5817.7,
    "text": " They're just reaping the fruits of one lottery after another",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5817.7,
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    "text": " and then showing up in the world on that basis.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5821.94,
    "end": 5825.98,
    "text": " And then so it is with every malevolent asshole out there,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5825.98,
    "end": 5829.599999999999,
    "text": " right, he or she didn't make themself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5830.6,
    "end": 5834.96,
    "text": " Even if that weren't possible, the utility",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5834.96,
    "end": 5838.64,
    "text": " for self-compassion is also enormous",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5838.64,
    "end": 5841.8,
    "text": " because it's when you just look at what it's like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " to regret something or to feel shame about something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5847.56,
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    "text": " or feel deep embarrassment about these states of mind",
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  {
    "start": 5850.200000000001,
    "end": 5854.660000000001,
    "text": " or some of the most deranging experiences anyone has",
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  {
    "start": 5854.9,
    "end": 5859.9,
    "text": " and the kind of the indelible reaction to them,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5860.3,
    "end": 5862.22,
    "text": " the memory of the thing you said,",
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  {
    "start": 5862.22,
    "end": 5864.9,
    "text": " the memory of the wedding toast you gave 20 years ago",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5864.9,
    "end": 5867.18,
    "text": " that was just mortifying, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5867.18,
    "end": 5870.74,
    "text": " The fact that that can still make you hate yourself, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5870.74,
    "end": 5874.26,
    "text": " Like that psychologically, that is a knot",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5874.26,
    "end": 5876.38,
    "text": " that can be untied, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5876.38,
    "end": 5877.82,
    "text": " Speak for yourself, Sam.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5877.82,
    "end": 5878.66,
    "text": " Clearly you're not.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5878.66,
    "end": 5879.98,
    "text": " You gave a great toast.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5879.98,
    "end": 5881.22,
    "text": " It was my toast that mortified me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5881.22,
    "end": 5883.62,
    "text": " No, no, no, that's not what I was referring to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5884.7,
    "end": 5887.42,
    "text": " I'm deeply appreciative in the same way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 5887.42,
    "end": 5890.46,
    "text": " that you're referring to of every moment I'm alive,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5890.46,
    "end": 5894.44,
    "text": " but I'm also powered by self-hate often.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5895.46,
    "end": 5898.18,
    "text": " Like several things in this conversation already",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5898.18,
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    "text": " that I've spoken, I'll be thinking about,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5901.139999999999,
    "end": 5903.18,
    "text": " like that was the dumbest thing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5903.18,
    "end": 5906.34,
    "text": " You're sitting in front of Sam Harris and he said that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5906.34,
    "end": 5909.38,
    "text": " So like that, but that somehow creates",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5909.38,
    "end": 5910.7,
    "text": " a richer experience for me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5910.7,
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    "text": " Like I've actually come to accept that as a nice feature",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 5913.46,
    "end": 5915.42,
    "text": " however my brain was built.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5915.42,
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    "text": " I don't think I want to let go of that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 5917.42,
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    "text": " Well, the thing you, I think the thing you want to let go",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5919.38,
    "end": 5924.38,
    "text": " of is the suffering associated with it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5926.5,
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    "text": " So like, so for me, so it's just very psychologically",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5933.1,
    "end": 5935.3,
    "text": " and ethically all of this is very interesting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5935.3,
    "end": 5937.94,
    "text": " So I don't think we ever, we should ever get rid",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5937.94,
    "end": 5939.58,
    "text": " of things like anger, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5939.58,
    "end": 5942.78,
    "text": " So like hatred is, hatred is divorceable from anger",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5942.78,
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    "text": " in the sense that hatred is this enduring state where,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5948.0199999999995,
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    "text": " you know, whether you're hating somebody else",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5949.179999999999,
    "end": 5951.54,
    "text": " or hating yourself, it is just,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5951.54,
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    "text": " it is toxic and durable and ultimately useless, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5955.98,
    "end": 5959.62,
    "text": " Like it becomes, it becomes self nullifying, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5959.62,
    "end": 5963.36,
    "text": " Like you become less capable as a person",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " to solve any of your problems.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 5964.54,
    "end": 5966.74,
    "text": " It's not, it's not instrumental in solving the problem",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that is, that is, is occasioning all this hatred.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And anger for the most part,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5972.88,
    "end": 5976.2,
    "text": " isn't either except as a signal of salience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5976.2,
    "end": 5977.36,
    "text": " that there's a problem, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5977.36,
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    "text": " So if somebody does something that makes me angry,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5980.36,
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    "text": " that just promotes this situation to conscious,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5984.36,
    "end": 5987.04,
    "text": " conscious attention in a way that is stronger",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 5987.04,
    "end": 5989.56,
    "text": " than my not really caring about it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5989.56,
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    "text": " And there are things that I think should make us angry",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5991.52,
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    "text": " in the world and there's the behavior of other people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that should make us angry because we should respond to it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5997.54,
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    "text": " And so it is with yourself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 5999.2,
    "end": 6001.92,
    "text": " If I do something, you know, as a parent,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " if I do something stupid that harms one of my daughters,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6005.36,
    "end": 6010.36,
    "text": " right, my belief, my experience of myself",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6010.36,
    "end": 6014.48,
    "text": " and my beliefs about free will close the door to my saying,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6014.48,
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    "text": " well, I should have done otherwise in the sense",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6016.36,
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    "text": " that if I could go back in time,",
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    "text": " No, I would do, given the same causes and conditions,",
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    "start": 6022.9,
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    "text": " I would do that thing a trillion times in a row, right?",
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    "text": " But, you know, regret and feeling bad about an outcome",
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    "text": " are still important to capacities because like, yeah,",
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    "start": 6046.06,
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    "text": " and they get injured, right?",
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    "text": " And I do it because I was trying to change a song",
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    "start": 6056.88,
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    "text": " how long do I stew in that feeling of regret, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6062.2,
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    "text": " And what utility is there to extract out of this error signal?",
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    "start": 6068.58,
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    "text": " And then what do I do?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " We're always faced with the question of what to do next,",
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    "start": 6073.64,
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    "text": " right, and how to best do that thing,",
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    "text": " that necessary thing next.",
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    "text": " in response mode, right?",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Or that we should, like maybe we're not gonna die, right?",
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    "start": 6398.26,
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    "start": 6405.3,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And the more salient we can make them,",
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    "text": " that every circumstance is finite, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You've got a certain number of, you know, whatever,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " whatever it is, 8,000 days left in a normal span of life.",
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    "text": " And 8,000 is a, sounds like a big number.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6444.34,
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    "text": " It's not that big a number, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So it's just like, and then you can decide",
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    "text": " how you want to go through life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6451.62,
    "end": 6454.54,
    "text": " and how you want to experience each one of those days.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6454.58,
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    "text": " And so I was back to where our jumping off point,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6459.14,
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    "text": " I would argue that you don't want to feel self-hatred ever.",
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    "start": 6464.18,
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    "text": " I would argue that you don't want to really,",
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  {
    "start": 6473.3,
    "end": 6475.34,
    "text": " really grasp onto any of those moments",
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  {
    "start": 6475.34,
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    "text": " where you are internalizing the fact",
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    "start": 6478.98,
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    "text": " that you just made an error, you've embarrassed yourself,",
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    "start": 6481.5199999999995,
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    "text": " that something didn't go the way you wanted it to.",
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    "start": 6483.86,
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    "start": 6486.04,
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    "text": " very, very lightly.",
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    "start": 6487.0199999999995,
    "end": 6490.86,
    "text": " You want to extract the actionable information.",
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    "start": 6490.86,
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    "text": " It's something to learn.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6492.0,
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    "text": " Oh, you know, I learned that when I prepare",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6497.12,
    "end": 6498.5,
    "text": " in a certain way, it works better",
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  {
    "start": 6498.5,
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    "text": " than when I prepare in some other way or don't prepare,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6500.82,
    "end": 6503.38,
    "text": " right, like, yes, lesson learned,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6503.38,
    "end": 6505.62,
    "text": " you know, and do that differently.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6505.62,
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    "text": " But yeah, I mean, so many of us",
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    "start": 6510.66,
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    "text": " have spent so much time with a very dysfunctional",
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    "start": 6526.099999999999,
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    "start": 6528.38,
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    "text": " and a lot of just our default way of being with ourselves.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6531.82,
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    "text": " I mean, the privacy of our own minds",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6534.18,
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    "text": " were in the company of a real jerk a lot of the time.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6538.14,
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    "text": " And that can't help but affect,",
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    "start": 6543.34,
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    "text": " I mean, forget about just your own sense of wellbeing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 6545.62,
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    "text": " It can't help but limit what you're capable of",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6548.62,
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    "text": " in the world with other people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6550.62,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6551.900000000001,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " is much less of a jerk than like somebody like David Goggins,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 6558.18,
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    "text": " who's just like screaming in his ear constantly.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6560.14,
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    "text": " So I have a relativist kind of perspective",
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    "start": 6563.22,
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    "start": 6565.82,
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    "text": " Well, having a sense of humor also helps, you know,",
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    "start": 6568.5,
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    "text": " it's just like, it's not,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6569.58,
    "end": 6572.7,
    "text": " the stakes are never quite what you think they are.",
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    "start": 6572.7,
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    "text": " between being able to see the comedy of it rather than,",
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    "start": 6584.58,
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    "text": " of self-absorption that pulls everything into it, right?",
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    "text": " And it's like, that's the algorithm you don't want to run.",
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    "start": 6595.02,
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    "text": " So it's like, you just want things to be good.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6597.62,
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    "text": " So like, just push the concern out there,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6600.9800000000005,
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    "text": " like not have the collapse of,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6606.62,
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    "text": " It's just like, listen, what does this say about",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6608.740000000001,
    "end": 6611.22,
    "text": " how do we make this meal that we're all having together",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " as fun and as useful as possible?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6615.62,
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    "text": " And you're saying in terms of propulsion systems,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6617.5,
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    "text": " you recommend humor is a good spaceship",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 6619.66,
    "end": 6623.66,
    "text": " to escape the gravitational field of that darkness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6623.7,
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    "text": " Well, it certainly helps.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6624.98,
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    "text": " Yeah, well, let me ask you a little bit about ego and fame,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 6629.66,
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    "text": " which is very interesting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " The way you're talking,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " given that you're one of the biggest intellects,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 6638.78,
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    "text": " living intellects and minds of our time,",
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    "text": " and there's a lot of people that really love you",
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    "text": " and almost elevate you to a certain kind of status",
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    "text": " where you're like the guru,",
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    "text": " I'm surprised you didn't show up in a robe, in fact.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 6654.179999999999,
    "end": 6658.62,
    "text": " Is there a hoodie that's not the highest status garment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6658.62,
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    "text": " one can wear now?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6659.46,
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    "text": " The socially acceptable version of the robe.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6662.099999999999,
    "end": 6664.66,
    "text": " If you're a billionaire, you wear a hoodie.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6664.66,
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    "text": " Is there something you can say about managing",
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  {
    "start": 6667.219999999999,
    "end": 6671.54,
    "text": " the effects of fame on your own mind,",
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    "text": " on not creating this,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " when you wake up in the morning,",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " how do you get your ego not to grow exponentially?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6684.3,
    "end": 6686.34,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6686.34,
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    "text": " because there's so many people feeding that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6688.820000000001,
    "end": 6690.22,
    "text": " Is there something to be said about this?",
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    "text": " It's really not hard because, I mean,",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " from much grandiosity.",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " given the remaining 8,000 days at best,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I will never get good at.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6720.1,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " So it's just, it's easy to feel diminished by comparison",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6726.26,
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    "text": " with the talents of others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6728.860000000001,
    "end": 6731.22,
    "text": " Do you remind yourself of all the things",
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    "text": " that you're not competent in?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6735.34,
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    "text": " They're just on display for me every day",
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    "text": " that I appreciate the talents of others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " But you notice them.",
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    "text": " all the ways in which they were.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " I mean, this is why absolute power corrupts absolutely",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " in which you're ridiculous and wrong.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6753.78,
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    "text": " Right, yeah, no, I am.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Not to compare you to Stalin.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6757.18,
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    "text": " Yeah, well, I'm sure there's an inner Stalin",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and there's somewhere.",
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    "text": " Well, we all have, we all carry a baby Stalin.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " We all wear his better clothes.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Those concerns don't map on,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6770.86,
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    "text": " they don't map onto me for a bunch of reasons,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I'm just, I've been appreciating this for a few years,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " of my size or larger that have a very different experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " of having an audience than I do.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And the net result of that is virtually any time",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6805.9800000000005,
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    "text": " I say anything of substance, something like half",
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    "text": " of my audience, my real audience, not haters",
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    "text": " from outside my audience, but my audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6815.42,
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    "text": " is just revolts over it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6818.42,
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    "text": " They just like, oh my God, I can't believe you said it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6821.1,
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    "text": " Like you're such a schmuck, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6823.3,
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    "text": " They revolt with rigor and intellectual sophistication.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 6827.1,
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    "text": " Or not, or not, but I mean, it's like,",
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  {
    "start": 6830.22,
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    "text": " but people who are like, so I mean, the clearest case is,",
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    "text": " you know, I have an audience, I have whatever audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I have, and then Trump appears on the scene.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And I discovered that something like 20% of my audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6843.900000000001,
    "end": 6845.18,
    "text": " I didn't follow them there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6845.18,
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    "text": " They were just aghast that I didn't see",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6846.9800000000005,
    "end": 6850.14,
    "text": " that Trump was obviously exactly what we needed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " to steer the ship of state for the next four years,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6855.42,
    "end": 6857.1,
    "text": " and then four years beyond that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6857.1,
    "end": 6860.46,
    "text": " So that's one example.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6860.46,
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    "text": " So whenever I said anything about Trump,",
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  {
    "start": 6862.740000000001,
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    "text": " I would hear from people who loved more or less",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6865.820000000001,
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    "text": " everything else I was up to and had for years,",
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  {
    "start": 6868.9800000000005,
    "end": 6873.46,
    "text": " but everything I said about Trump just gave me pure pain",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6873.46,
    "end": 6876.22,
    "text": " from this quadrant of my audience.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6876.22,
    "end": 6879.62,
    "text": " But then the same thing happens when I say something",
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  },
  {
    "start": 6879.62,
    "end": 6882.0599999999995,
    "text": " about the derangement of the far left.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6882.0599999999995,
    "end": 6886.42,
    "text": " Anything I say about wokeness, right, or identity politics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6886.42,
    "end": 6888.66,
    "text": " same kind of punishment signal from us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6888.66,
    "end": 6891.86,
    "text": " Again, people who are core to my audience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6891.86,
    "end": 6893.58,
    "text": " like I've read all your books,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6893.58,
    "end": 6895.74,
    "text": " I'm using your meditation app,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6895.74,
    "end": 6897.98,
    "text": " I love what you say about science,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 6897.98,
    "end": 6900.14,
    "text": " but you are so wrong about politics,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6900.14,
    "end": 6902.58,
    "text": " and I'm starting to think you're a racist asshole",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6902.58,
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    "text": " for everything you said about identity politics.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6906.08,
    "end": 6910.08,
    "text": " And there are so many, the free will topic is just like this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6912.08,
    "end": 6915.2,
    "text": " They love what I'm saying about consciousness and the mind,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6915.2,
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    "text": " and they love to hear me talk about physics with physicists,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6918.36,
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    "text": " and it's all good.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6920.48,
    "end": 6923.2,
    "text": " This free will stuff is I cannot believe",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6923.2,
    "end": 6924.5199999999995,
    "text": " you don't see how wrong you are.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6924.5199999999995,
    "end": 6926.8,
    "text": " What a fucking embarrassment you are.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 6926.8,
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    "text": " So, but I'm starting to notice that there are other people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6930.42,
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    "text": " who don't have this experience of having an audience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6933.52,
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    "text": " because they have, let me just take the Trump-woke dichotomy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6937.400000000001,
    "end": 6941.72,
    "text": " They just castigated Trump the same way I did,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6941.72,
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    "text": " but they never say anything bad about the far left.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6944.200000000001,
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    "text": " So they never get this punishment signal, or you flip it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6946.96,
    "end": 6951.96,
    "text": " They're all about the insanity of critical race theory now.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6953.120000000001,
    "end": 6956.8,
    "text": " We connect all those dots the same way,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6956.8,
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    "text": " but they never really specified what was wrong with Trump,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6960.4400000000005,
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    "text": " or they thought there was a lot right with Trump,",
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    "start": 6962.4800000000005,
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    "text": " and they got all the pleasure of that.",
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  {
    "start": 6964.88,
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    "text": " And so they have much more homogenized audiences.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 6969.8,
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    "text": " And so my experience, so just to come back to,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6973.4800000000005,
    "end": 6978.4800000000005,
    "text": " this experience of fame or quasi-fame and truth is not real fame,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 6978.84,
    "end": 6982.06,
    "text": " but it's still, there's an audience there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6985.580000000001,
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    "text": " It's now an experience where basically whatever I put out,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 6991.0199999999995,
    "end": 6994.42,
    "text": " I notice a ton of negativity coming back at me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6994.42,
    "end": 6997.88,
    "text": " And it just, it is what it is.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 6997.88,
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    "text": " I mean, now it's like, I used to think, wait a minute,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7000.74,
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    "text": " there's gotta be some way for me to communicate",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7002.98,
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    "text": " more clearly here so as not to get this kind of lunatic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7009.1,
    "end": 7010.98,
    "text": " response from my own audience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7010.98,
    "end": 7013.54,
    "text": " from like people who are showing all the signs of,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7015.0199999999995,
    "end": 7017.18,
    "text": " we've been here for years for a reason, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7017.18,
    "end": 7019.1,
    "text": " These are not just trolls.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7019.1,
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    "text": " And so I think, okay, I'm gonna take 10 more minutes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7021.900000000001,
    "end": 7026.58,
    "text": " and really just tell you what should be absolutely clear",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7026.58,
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    "text": " about what's wrong with Trump.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7027.780000000001,
    "end": 7029.46,
    "text": " And I've done this a few times,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7029.46,
    "end": 7031.660000000001,
    "text": " but I think I gotta do this again.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7031.660000000001,
    "end": 7035.08,
    "text": " Or wait a minute, how are they not getting",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7035.08,
    "end": 7037.64,
    "text": " that these episodes of police violence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7037.64,
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    "text": " are so obviously different from one another,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7039.780000000001,
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    "text": " that you can't describe all of them to yet another racist",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7044.900000000001,
    "end": 7046.84,
    "text": " maniac on the police force,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7046.84,
    "end": 7048.7,
    "text": " killing someone based on his racism.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7050.860000000001,
    "end": 7053.52,
    "text": " Last time I spoke about this, it was pure pain,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7053.52,
    "end": 7055.64,
    "text": " but I just gotta try again.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7055.64,
    "end": 7058.64,
    "text": " Now at a certain point, I mean, I'm starting to feel like,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7058.64,
    "end": 7062.4400000000005,
    "text": " all right, I just, I have to be, I have to cease.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7062.4400000000005,
    "end": 7064.92,
    "text": " Again, it comes back to this expectation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7064.92,
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    "text": " that there shouldn't be fires.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7066.400000000001,
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    "text": " Like I feel like if I could just play my game impeccably,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7071.24,
    "end": 7075.400000000001,
    "text": " the people who actually care what I think will follow me",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7075.400000000001,
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    "text": " when I hit Trump and hit free will and hit the woke",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7080.280000000001,
    "end": 7082.240000000001,
    "text": " and hit whatever it is,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7082.240000000001,
    "end": 7086.400000000001,
    "text": " how we should respond to the coronavirus, vaccines,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7086.400000000001,
    "end": 7087.6,
    "text": " are they a thing, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7087.6,
    "end": 7092.22,
    "text": " Like there's such derangement in our information space now",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7092.22,
    "end": 7096.040000000001,
    "text": " that I guess some people could be getting more of this",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7096.040000000001,
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    "text": " than I expect, but I just noticed that many of our friends",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " who are in the same game have more homogenized audiences",
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    "start": 7104.96,
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    "text": " and they've successfully filtered out the people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7108.679999999999,
    "end": 7112.28,
    "text": " who are gonna despise them on this next topic.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7112.28,
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    "text": " And I would imagine you have a different experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7116.3,
    "end": 7118.5599999999995,
    "text": " of having a podcast than I do at this point.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7118.5599999999995,
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    "text": " I'm sure you get haters,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7120.5199999999995,
    "end": 7125.2,
    "text": " but I would imagine you're more streamlined.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7125.2,
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    "text": " I actually don't like the word haters",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 7126.96,
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    "text": " because it kinda presumes that it puts people in a bin.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7132.44,
    "end": 7135.88,
    "text": " I think we all have like baby haters inside of us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7135.88,
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    "text": " and we just apply them and some people enjoy doing that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7139.12,
    "end": 7141.96,
    "text": " more than others for particular periods of time.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7141.96,
    "end": 7144.88,
    "text": " I think you're gonna almost see hating on the internet",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7144.88,
    "end": 7147.4,
    "text": " as a video game that you just play and it's fun,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7147.4,
    "end": 7149.64,
    "text": " but then you can put it down and walk away.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7149.64,
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    "text": " And no, I certainly have a bunch of people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7152.1,
    "end": 7153.24,
    "text": " that are very critical.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7153.24,
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    "text": " I can list all the ways.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7154.68,
    "end": 7156.76,
    "text": " But does it feel like on any given topic,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7156.76,
    "end": 7159.8,
    "text": " does it feel like it's an actual title surge",
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    "start": 7159.8,
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    "text": " where it's like 30% of your audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7161.96,
    "end": 7164.8,
    "text": " and then the other 30% of your audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7164.8,
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    "text": " from podcast to podcast?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7165.96,
    "end": 7166.88,
    "text": " No, no, no.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7166.88,
    "end": 7169.52,
    "text": " That's happening to me all the time now.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7169.52,
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    "text": " Well, I'm more with,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 7171.04,
    "end": 7172.16,
    "text": " I don't know what you think about this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7172.16,
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    "text": " I mean, Joe Rogan doesn't read comments",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7175.320000000001,
    "end": 7176.88,
    "text": " or doesn't read comments much.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7177.84,
    "end": 7180.64,
    "text": " And the argument he made to me is that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " he already has like a self-critical person inside.",
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    "start": 7188.200000000001,
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    "text": " Like, and I'm gonna have to think about",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 7190.56,
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    "text": " what you said in this conversation,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7191.68,
    "end": 7195.64,
    "text": " but I have this very harshly self-critical person inside",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7195.64,
    "end": 7198.160000000001,
    "text": " as well where I don't need more fuel.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7198.160000000001,
    "end": 7201.56,
    "text": " I don't need, no, I do sometimes,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7201.56,
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    "text": " that's why I check negativity occasionally, not too often.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7205.920000000001,
    "end": 7208.900000000001,
    "text": " I sometimes need to like put a little bit more like coals",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7208.900000000001,
    "end": 7211.960000000001,
    "text": " into the fire, but not too much.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7211.960000000001,
    "end": 7213.880000000001,
    "text": " But I already have that self-critical engine",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7213.880000000001,
    "end": 7215.160000000001,
    "text": " that keeps me in check.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7216.04,
    "end": 7219.5599999999995,
    "text": " I wonder, a lot of people who gain more and more fame",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7219.5599999999995,
    "end": 7223.98,
    "text": " lose that ability to be self-critical,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7223.98,
    "end": 7225.9,
    "text": " I guess because they lose the audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7225.9,
    "end": 7227.5599999999995,
    "text": " that can be critical towards them.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7228.8,
    "end": 7231.84,
    "text": " I do follow Joe's advice much more than I ever have here.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7231.84,
    "end": 7234.12,
    "text": " Like I don't look at comments very often",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7234.12,
    "end": 7236.16,
    "text": " and I'm probably using Twitter",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7239.0,
    "end": 7241.639999999999,
    "text": " 5% as much as I used to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7241.639999999999,
    "end": 7244.04,
    "text": " I mean, I really just get in and out on Twitter",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7244.08,
    "end": 7246.82,
    "text": " and spend very little time in my ad mentions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7249.8,
    "end": 7251.32,
    "text": " In some ways it feels like a loss",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7251.32,
    "end": 7255.0,
    "text": " because occasionally I see something super intelligent there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7255.0,
    "end": 7257.32,
    "text": " Like, I mean, I'll check my Twitter ad mentions",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7257.32,
    "end": 7258.88,
    "text": " and someone will have said,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7258.88,
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    "text": " oh, have you read this article?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7260.04,
    "end": 7262.08,
    "text": " And it's like, man, that was just,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7262.08,
    "end": 7265.16,
    "text": " that was like the best article sent to me in a month, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7265.16,
    "end": 7266.8,
    "text": " So it's like to have not have looked",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7266.8,
    "end": 7270.0,
    "text": " and to not have seen that, that's a loss.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7271.0,
    "end": 7275.0,
    "text": " But it does, at this point, a little goes a long way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7275.0,
    "end": 7277.88,
    "text": " because it's not that it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7279.92,
    "end": 7282.24,
    "text": " for me now, I mean, this could sound",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7282.24,
    "end": 7286.76,
    "text": " like a fairly Stalinistic immunity to criticism.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7286.76,
    "end": 7289.36,
    "text": " It's not so much that these voices of hate",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7289.36,
    "end": 7293.12,
    "text": " turn on my inner hater, you know, more.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7293.12,
    "end": 7295.36,
    "text": " It's more that I just, I get a,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7295.360000000001,
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    "text": " what I fear is a false sense of humanity.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7300.4400000000005,
    "end": 7303.200000000001,
    "text": " Like, I feel like I'm too online",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7303.200000000001,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7306.000000000001,
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    "text": " in everybody, everyone's signaling to an audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7308.4400000000005,
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    "text": " when they trash you.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7310.360000000001,
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    "text": " And I get a, I'm getting a, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7315.8,
    "end": 7320.8,
    "text": " misanthropic, you know, cut of just what it's like out there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7321.240000000001,
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    "text": " And because when you meet people in real life,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7324.16,
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    "text": " they're great, you know, they're rather often great,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7326.72,
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    "text": " you know, and it takes a lot to have anything",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7330.92,
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    "text": " like a Twitter encounter in real life with a living person.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7337.0,
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    "text": " And that's, I think it's much better to have that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7341.04,
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    "text": " as one's default sense of what it's like to be with people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7344.92,
    "end": 7348.12,
    "text": " than what one gets on social media",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7348.12,
    "end": 7350.5199999999995,
    "text": " or on YouTube comment threads.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7350.5199999999995,
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    "text": " You've produced a special episode with Rob Reed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7353.52,
    "end": 7357.64,
    "text": " in your podcast recently on how bioengineering",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7357.64,
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    "text": " of viruses is going to destroy human civilization.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7360.4400000000005,
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    "text": " So, or could, could, could, sorry, the confidence there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7365.280000000001,
    "end": 7369.52,
    "text": " But in the 21st century, what do you think,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7369.52,
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    "text": " especially after having thought through that angle,",
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    "start": 7373.68,
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    "text": " what do you think is the biggest threat",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 7376.080000000001,
    "end": 7378.76,
    "text": " to the survival of the human species?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7380.92,
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    "text": " I can give you the full menu if you'd like.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7382.8,
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    "text": " Yeah, well, no, I would put,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7385.4800000000005,
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    "text": " I would put the biggest threat at the,",
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  {
    "start": 7388.96,
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    "text": " at another level out, kind of the meta threat is",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7393.56,
    "end": 7398.56,
    "text": " our inability to agree about what the threats actually are",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7399.08,
    "end": 7404.08,
    "text": " and to converge on strategies for responding to them, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7405.2,
    "end": 7408.58,
    "text": " So like I view COVID as, among other things,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7409.58,
    "end": 7414.58,
    "text": " a truly terrifyingly failed dress rehearsal",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7415.78,
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    "text": " for something far worse, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7417.26,
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    "text": " I mean, COVID is just about as benign as it could have been",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7421.62,
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    "text": " and still have been worse than the flu",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7424.66,
    "end": 7426.7,
    "text": " when you're talking about a global pandemic, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7426.7,
    "end": 7430.14,
    "text": " It's just, it's, you know, it's going to kill",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7430.14,
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    "text": " a few million people, or it looks like it's killed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7432.66,
    "end": 7435.14,
    "text": " about three million people, maybe it'll kill",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7435.14,
    "end": 7438.26,
    "text": " a few million more unless something gets away from us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7438.280000000001,
    "end": 7441.0,
    "text": " with a variant that's much worse",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7441.0,
    "end": 7442.56,
    "text": " or we really don't play our cards, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7442.56,
    "end": 7446.38,
    "text": " But I mean, the general shape of it is",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7447.34,
    "end": 7452.34,
    "text": " it's got, you know, somewhere around, well, 1% lethality.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7453.0,
    "end": 7458.0,
    "text": " And whatever side of that number it really is on in the end,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7459.22,
    "end": 7463.780000000001,
    "text": " it's not what would in fact be possible",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7463.780000000001,
    "end": 7466.6,
    "text": " and is in fact probably inevitable,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7466.6,
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    "text": " something with, you know, orders of magnitude,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7469.68,
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    "text": " more lethality than that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7470.88,
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    "text": " And it's just so obvious we are totally unprepared, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7475.4400000000005,
    "end": 7479.88,
    "text": " We are running this epidemiological experiment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7479.88,
    "end": 7481.72,
    "text": " of linking the entire world together.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7481.72,
    "end": 7486.4800000000005,
    "text": " And then also now, per the podcast that Rob Reed did,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7487.8,
    "end": 7491.08,
    "text": " democratizing the tech that will allow us to do this",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7491.08,
    "end": 7493.26,
    "text": " to engineer pandemics, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7493.26,
    "end": 7496.9800000000005,
    "text": " And some more and more people will be able",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7496.9800000000005,
    "end": 7500.860000000001,
    "text": " to engineer synthetic viruses that will be",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7502.88,
    "end": 7505.02,
    "text": " by the sheer fact that they would have been engineered",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7505.02,
    "end": 7508.68,
    "text": " with malicious intent, you know, worse than COVID.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7508.68,
    "end": 7512.54,
    "text": " And we're still living in, you know, to speak specifically",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7512.54,
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    "text": " about the United States, we have a country here",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7515.74,
    "end": 7519.18,
    "text": " where we can't even agree that this is a thing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7519.18,
    "end": 7521.18,
    "text": " You know, like that COVID, I mean, there's still people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7521.3,
    "end": 7523.56,
    "text": " who think that this is basically a hoax",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7523.56,
    "end": 7525.66,
    "text": " designed to control people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7525.66,
    "end": 7529.46,
    "text": " And I mean, stranger still, there are people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7529.46,
    "end": 7533.38,
    "text": " who will acknowledge that COVID is real",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7533.38,
    "end": 7536.42,
    "text": " and they don't think the deaths have been faked",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7536.42,
    "end": 7541.42,
    "text": " or mis-escribed, but they think that they're far happier",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7542.02,
    "end": 7546.02,
    "text": " at the prospect of catching COVID than they are",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7546.02,
    "end": 7548.78,
    "text": " of getting vaccinated for COVID, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7548.78,
    "end": 7549.62,
    "text": " They're not worried about COVID,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7549.62,
    "end": 7552.06,
    "text": " they're worried about vaccines for COVID, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7552.06,
    "end": 7556.06,
    "text": " And the fact that we just can't converge in a conversation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7556.06,
    "end": 7561.06,
    "text": " that we've now had a year to have with one another",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7561.34,
    "end": 7563.5,
    "text": " on just what is the ground truth here?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7563.5,
    "end": 7565.18,
    "text": " What's happened?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7565.18,
    "end": 7566.7,
    "text": " Why has it happened?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7566.7,
    "end": 7568.1,
    "text": " Why is it happening?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7568.18,
    "end": 7569.820000000001,
    "text": " What's happened?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7569.820000000001,
    "end": 7571.660000000001,
    "text": " Why has it happened?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7571.660000000001,
    "end": 7575.38,
    "text": " What's the, how safe is it to get COVID at, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7575.38,
    "end": 7579.26,
    "text": " every, you know, in every cohort in the population",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7579.26,
    "end": 7581.1,
    "text": " and how safe are the vaccines?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7581.1,
    "end": 7583.9400000000005,
    "text": " And the fact that there's still an air of mystery",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7583.9400000000005,
    "end": 7587.3,
    "text": " around all of this for much of our society",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7588.3,
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    "text": " does not bode well when you're talking about solving",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7590.740000000001,
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    "text": " any other problem that may yet kill us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7592.900000000001,
    "end": 7594.46,
    "text": " But do you think convergence grows",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7594.46,
    "end": 7596.22,
    "text": " when the magnitude is a threat?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7596.62,
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    "text": " It's possible, except I feel like we have tipped into,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7600.860000000001,
    "end": 7605.7,
    "text": " because when the threat of COVID looked the most dire,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7605.7,
    "end": 7608.9400000000005,
    "text": " right, when we were seeing reports from Italy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7608.9400000000005,
    "end": 7611.38,
    "text": " that look like, you know, the beginning of a zombie movie,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7611.38,
    "end": 7612.22,
    "text": " right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7612.22,
    "end": 7613.06,
    "text": " Because it could have been much, much worse.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7613.06,
    "end": 7615.38,
    "text": " Yeah, like this is like, this is lethal, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7615.38,
    "end": 7617.860000000001,
    "text": " Like your ICUs are gonna fill up in, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7617.860000000001,
    "end": 7620.1,
    "text": " like you're 14 days behind us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 7620.1,
    "end": 7624.820000000001,
    "text": " You're gonna, your medical system is in danger of collapse.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7624.82,
    "end": 7626.74,
    "text": " Lock the fuck down.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7626.74,
    "end": 7631.74,
    "text": " We have people refusing to do anything sane",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7631.74,
    "end": 7632.58,
    "text": " in the face of that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7632.58,
    "end": 7634.98,
    "text": " Like people fundamentally thinking,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7634.98,
    "end": 7636.46,
    "text": " it's not gonna get here, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7636.46,
    "end": 7638.54,
    "text": " Like that's, who knows what's going on in Italy,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7638.54,
    "end": 7640.46,
    "text": " but it has no implications for what's gonna go on",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7640.46,
    "end": 7643.42,
    "text": " in New York in a mere six days, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7643.42,
    "end": 7645.34,
    "text": " And now it kicks off in New York",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7645.34,
    "end": 7647.74,
    "text": " and you've got people in the middle of the country",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7647.74,
    "end": 7650.66,
    "text": " thinking it's no factor.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7650.66,
    "end": 7652.9,
    "text": " It's not, that's just big city.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7652.9,
    "end": 7654.299999999999,
    "text": " Those are big city problems.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7654.74,
    "end": 7655.58,
    "text": " Or they're faking it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7655.58,
    "end": 7660.14,
    "text": " Or I mean, it just, the layer of politics",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7660.14,
    "end": 7662.66,
    "text": " has become so dysfunctional for us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7662.66,
    "end": 7667.66,
    "text": " that even in what, in the presence of a pandemic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7668.34,
    "end": 7670.9400000000005,
    "text": " that looked legitimately scary there in the beginning,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7670.9400000000005,
    "end": 7672.9400000000005,
    "text": " I mean, it's not to say that it hasn't been devastating",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7672.9400000000005,
    "end": 7674.9800000000005,
    "text": " for everyone who's been directly affected by it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7674.9800000000005,
    "end": 7676.860000000001,
    "text": " And it's not to say it can't get worse,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7676.860000000001,
    "end": 7678.9800000000005,
    "text": " but here, you know, for a very long time,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7682.04,
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    "text": " that is more benign than what seemed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7685.92,
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    "text": " like the worst case scenario as it was kicking off,",
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    "text": " especially in Italy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7691.68,
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    "text": " And so still, yeah, it's quite possible",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7695.62,
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    "text": " that if we saw the asteroid hurtling toward earth",
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    "text": " and we're all gonna die, then we could get off Twitter",
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    "start": 7707.76,
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    "text": " and actually build the rockets",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7710.28,
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    "text": " that are gonna divert the, you know,",
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    "start": 7711.84,
    "end": 7715.16,
    "text": " divert the asteroid from its earth crossing path",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7715.16,
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    "text": " and we could do something pretty heroic.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7717.78,
    "end": 7722.46,
    "text": " But when you talk about anything else that isn't,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7725.5199999999995,
    "end": 7727.04,
    "text": " that's slower moving than that,",
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    "start": 7727.04,
    "end": 7728.639999999999,
    "text": " I mean, something like climate change,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7728.639999999999,
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    "text": " I think there's, I think the prospect of our converging",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7734.5199999999995,
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    "text": " on a solution to climate change,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7736.08,
    "end": 7738.96,
    "text": " purely based on political persuasion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7738.96,
    "end": 7740.6,
    "text": " is non-existent at this point.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7740.6,
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    "text": " I just think that, I mean, to bring Elon back into this,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7744.4800000000005,
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    "text": " the way to deal with climate change is to create technology",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7748.16,
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    "text": " that everyone wants that is better",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7750.76,
    "end": 7754.6,
    "text": " than all the carbon producing technology.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7754.6,
    "end": 7759.28,
    "text": " And then we just transition because you want an electric car",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7759.28,
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    "text": " the same way you wanted a smartphone",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7760.68,
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    "text": " or you want anything else.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7762.76,
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    "text": " And you're working totally with the grain",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7764.900000000001,
    "end": 7769.06,
    "text": " of people's selfishness and short-term thinking.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7769.06,
    "end": 7771.120000000001,
    "text": " The idea that we're gonna convince",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7771.120000000001,
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    "text": " the better part of humanity that climate change",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7774.14,
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    "text": " is an emergency that they have to make sacrifices",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7777.26,
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    "text": " to respond to, given what's happened around COVID,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7781.14,
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    "text": " I just think that's the fantasy of a fantasy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7786.3,
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    "text": " But speaking of Elon, I have a bunch of positive things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7789.740000000001,
    "end": 7791.72,
    "text": " that I wanna say here in response to you,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7791.72,
    "end": 7793.700000000001,
    "text": " but you're opening so many threads,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7793.700000000001,
    "end": 7794.820000000001,
    "text": " but let me pull one of them,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
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    "end": 7797.74,
    "text": " which is AI.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7797.74,
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    "text": " Both you and Elon think that with AI,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 7802.5,
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    "text": " you're summoning demons, summoning a demon.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 7805.58,
    "end": 7807.5199999999995,
    "text": " Maybe not in those poetic terms, but.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 7808.54,
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    "text": " Well, potentially.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7809.94,
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    "text": " Potentially.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7810.78,
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    "text": " Two very, three very parsimonious assumptions,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7817.219999999999,
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    "text": " I think, here, scientifically,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7819.38,
    "end": 7821.38,
    "text": " parsimonious assumptions, get me there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7825.0599999999995,
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    "text": " Any of which could be wrong,",
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  {
    "start": 7826.219999999999,
    "end": 7830.62,
    "text": " but it just seems like the weight of the evidence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7830.62,
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    "text": " is on their side.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7831.46,
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    "text": " One is that it comes back to this topic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7834.0199999999995,
    "end": 7836.94,
    "text": " of substrate independence, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7836.94,
    "end": 7839.5,
    "text": " Anyone who's in the business of producing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7839.5,
    "end": 7843.9,
    "text": " intelligent machines must believe ultimately",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7843.9,
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    "text": " that there's nothing magical",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7845.759999999999,
    "end": 7847.42,
    "text": " about having a computer made of meat.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7847.42,
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    "text": " You can do this in the kinds of materials",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " we're using now, and there's no special something",
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    "start": 7856.78,
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    "text": " that presents a real impediment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7860.98,
    "end": 7864.82,
    "text": " to producing human-level intelligence in silico, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7865.86,
    "end": 7868.34,
    "text": " Again, an assumption, I'm sure there are a few people",
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  {
    "start": 7868.34,
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    "text": " who still think there is something magical",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7869.78,
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    "text": " about biological systems, but leave that aside.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7874.78,
    "end": 7879.78,
    "text": " Given that assumption, and given the assumption",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7881.46,
    "end": 7884.66,
    "text": " that we just continue making incremental progress,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7884.66,
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    "text": " doesn't have to be Moore's law,",
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  {
    "start": 7885.82,
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    "start": 7889.0599999999995,
    "end": 7891.9,
    "text": " at a certain point, we'll get",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7891.9,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7894.62,
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    "text": " And human-level intelligence, I think,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7896.86,
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    "text": " is also clearly a mirage, because anything",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7902.500000000001,
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    "text": " by unless we decide to dumb it down, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I mean, my phone is already superhuman as a calculator,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7907.500000000001,
    "end": 7911.26,
    "text": " right, so why would we make the human-level AI",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7911.26,
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    "text": " just as good as me as a calculator?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7914.900000000001,
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    "start": 7919.460000000001,
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    "text": " for any act of intelligence or cognition",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7929.06,
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    "text": " that we care to prioritize.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7931.14,
    "end": 7933.46,
    "text": " It's not to say that we'll create everything",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 7933.46,
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    "text": " that a human could do,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 7934.3,
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    "text": " maybe we'll leave certain things out,",
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  {
    "start": 7936.46,
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    "text": " but anything that we care about,",
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    "text": " and we care about a lot, and we certainly care",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " we'll have something that's superhuman.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that are not aligned with a happy coexistence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7966.58,
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    "text": " with these now more powerful entities than ourselves.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7971.42,
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    "text": " So, and I would guess, and this is kind of a rider",
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  {
    "start": 7975.98,
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    "text": " to that assumption, there are probably more ways",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7978.46,
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    "text": " to do it badly than to do it perfectly.",
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    "start": 7982.46,
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    "text": " That is perfectly aligned with our wellbeing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And when you think about the consequences of non-alignment,",
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    "start": 7995.02,
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    "text": " of something that is more intelligent than you are, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 7998.540000000001,
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    "text": " Which is to say more competent, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8000.26,
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    "text": " Unless you've, and obviously there are cartoon pictures",
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  {
    "start": 8004.900000000001,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8006.380000000001,
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    "text": " this is just an off switch,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8007.420000000001,
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    "text": " we could just turn off the off switch,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8008.540000000001,
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    "text": " or they're tethered to something that makes them,",
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  {
    "start": 8011.340000000001,
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    "text": " you know, are slaves in perpetuity,",
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    "text": " even though they're more intelligent.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " But those scenarios strike me as a failure",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8019.06,
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    "text": " to imagine what is actually entailed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8021.06,
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    "text": " by greater intelligence, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8022.38,
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    "text": " So if you imagine something that's legitimately",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " more intelligent than you are,",
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    "start": 8027.860000000001,
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    "text": " and you're now in relationship to it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8031.38,
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    "text": " You're in the presence of this thing,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8032.700000000001,
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    "text": " and it is autonomous in all kinds of ways",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8034.860000000001,
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    "text": " because it had to be to be more intelligent than you are.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8037.14,
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    "text": " I mean, you built it to be all of those things.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8041.4800000000005,
    "end": 8045.72,
    "text": " We just can't find ourselves in a negotiation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8045.72,
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    "text": " with something more intelligent than we are, you know?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8048.120000000001,
    "end": 8053.040000000001,
    "text": " And we can't, so we have to have found the subset of ways",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8053.040000000001,
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    "text": " to build these machines that are perpetually amenable",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8059.8,
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    "text": " to our saying, oh, that's not what we meant.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8064.160000000001,
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    "text": " That's not what we intended.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8065.080000000001,
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    "text": " Could you stop doing that?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8066.280000000001,
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    "text": " Come back over here and do this thing that we actually want.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8069.4800000000005,
    "end": 8071.68,
    "text": " And for them to care, for them to be tethered",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8071.68,
    "end": 8073.96,
    "text": " to our own sense of our own wellbeing,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8075.64,
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    "text": " such that, you know, their utility function is,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8079.160000000001,
    "end": 8081.64,
    "text": " you know, their primary utility function is for,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8081.64,
    "end": 8084.200000000001,
    "text": " is to, you know, this is, I think Stuart Russell's",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8086.56,
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    "text": " cartoon",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8089.400000000001,
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    "text": " plan is to figure out how to tether them",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8092.84,
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    "text": " to a utility function that has our own estimation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " of what's going to improve our wellbeing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8100.4800000000005,
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    "text": " as its master, you know, reward, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8105.56,
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    "text": " So it's like all this thing can get as intelligent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8108.4800000000005,
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    "text": " as it can get, but it only ever really wants to figure out",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " how to make our lives better by our own view of better.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8116.08,
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    "text": " Now, not to say there wouldn't be a conversation about,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8119.28,
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    "text": " you know, I mean, because all kinds of things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8121.08,
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    "text": " we're not seeing clearly about what is better.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8124.32,
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    "text": " And if we were in the presence of a genie or an Oracle,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8127.76,
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    "text": " they could really tell us what is better.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8129.240000000001,
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    "text": " Well, then we presumably would want to hear that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8132.12,
    "end": 8137.12,
    "text": " and we would modify our sense of what to do next",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8137.84,
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    "text": " in conversation with these minds.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8141.08,
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    "text": " But I just feel like it is a failure of imagination",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " to think that being in relationship to something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8157.960000000001,
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    "text": " isn't in most cases, a circumstance of real peril.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8164.360000000001,
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    "text": " Because it is in every, like just to think of,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8166.4800000000005,
    "end": 8169.4800000000005,
    "text": " think about everything on earth has to,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8169.4800000000005,
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    "text": " if they could think about their relationship to us,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8172.160000000001,
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    "text": " if birds could think about what we're doing, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8176.56,
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    "text": " They would, I mean, the bottom line is they're always",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " in danger of our discovering that there's something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8186.76,
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    "text": " we care about more than birds, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8189.4800000000005,
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    "text": " But there's something we want that disregards",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8192.12,
    "end": 8194.24,
    "text": " the wellbeing of birds.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8194.24,
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    "text": " And obviously much of our behavior is inscrutable to them.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8197.76,
    "end": 8199.08,
    "text": " Occasionally we pay attention to them",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8199.08,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8201.68,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8203.12,
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    "text": " for reasons they can't possibly understand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8205.52,
    "end": 8208.36,
    "text": " But if we're building something more intelligent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8208.36,
    "end": 8211.68,
    "text": " than ourselves, by definition, we're building something",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8211.68,
    "end": 8216.68,
    "text": " whose horizons of value and cognition",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8217.64,
    "end": 8220.12,
    "text": " can exceed our own.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8220.12,
    "end": 8225.12,
    "text": " And in ways where we can't necessarily foresee,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8225.32,
    "end": 8229.32,
    "text": " again, perpetually, that they don't just wake up one day",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8229.32,
    "end": 8234.28,
    "text": " and decide, okay, well, these humans need to disappear.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8234.28,
    "end": 8239.28,
    "text": " So I think I agree with most of the initial things you said",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8239.800000000001,
    "end": 8242.56,
    "text": " what I don't necessarily agree with,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8242.56,
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    "text": " in my own, of course, nobody knows,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8244.12,
    "end": 8247.6,
    "text": " but that the more likely set of trajectories",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8247.6,
    "end": 8250.44,
    "text": " that we're going to take are going to be positive.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8250.44,
    "end": 8252.08,
    "text": " That's what I believe.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8252.08,
    "end": 8255.92,
    "text": " In the sense that the way you develop,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8255.92,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8260.36,
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    "text": " will be deeply integrated with human society.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8263.800000000001,
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    "text": " And for them to succeed, they're going to have to be aligned",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8268.12,
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    "text": " in the way we humans are aligned with each other,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8270.400000000001,
    "end": 8272.6,
    "text": " which doesn't mean we're aligned.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8272.84,
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    "text": " There's no such thing, or I don't see",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8275.36,
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    "text": " there's such thing as a perfect alignment,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8277.880000000001,
    "end": 8281.12,
    "text": " but they're going to be participating in the dance,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8281.12,
    "end": 8284.56,
    "text": " in the game theoretic dance of human society",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8284.56,
    "end": 8286.56,
    "text": " as they become more and more intelligent.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8286.56,
    "end": 8289.24,
    "text": " There could be a point beyond which",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8289.24,
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    "text": " we are like birds to them.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8293.0,
    "end": 8296.12,
    "text": " But what about an intelligence explosion of some kind?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8296.12,
    "end": 8301.12,
    "text": " So I believe the explosion will be happening,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8301.12,
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    "text": " but there's a lot of explosion to be done",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
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    "text": " before we become like birds.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "end": 8308.160000000002,
    "text": " I truly believe that human beings",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " are very intelligent in ways we don't understand.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8310.720000000001,
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    "text": " It's not just about chess.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8312.28,
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    "text": " It's about all the intricate computation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8315.400000000001,
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    "text": " we're able to perform, common sense,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "end": 8320.640000000001,
    "text": " our ability to reason about this world consciousness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8320.640000000001,
    "end": 8322.44,
    "text": " I think we're doing a lot of work.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 8322.44,
    "end": 8324.6,
    "text": " We don't realize it's necessary to be done",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8324.6,
    "end": 8327.76,
    "text": " in order to truly become,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8327.76,
    "end": 8330.0,
    "text": " like to truly achieve super intelligence.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8330.32,
    "end": 8332.2,
    "text": " I just think there'll be a period of time",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8332.2,
    "end": 8333.8,
    "text": " that's not overnight.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 8333.8,
    "end": 8337.2,
    "text": " The overnight nature of it will not literally be overnight.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 8337.2,
    "end": 8339.6,
    "text": " It'll be over a period of decades.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8339.6,
    "end": 8340.44,
    "text": " So my sense is-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
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    "start": 8340.44,
    "end": 8341.48,
    "text": " But why would it be that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8341.48,
    "end": 8346.48,
    "text": " but just take, draw an analogy from recent successes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8346.48,
    "end": 8349.48,
    "text": " like something like AlphaGo or AlphaZero.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8349.48,
    "end": 8351.8,
    "text": " I forget the actual metric,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8351.8,
    "end": 8354.86,
    "text": " but it was something like this algorithm,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8355.74,
    "end": 8357.34,
    "text": " which wasn't even totally,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8357.34,
    "end": 8359.460000000001,
    "text": " it wasn't bespoke for chess playing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8361.5,
    "end": 8364.18,
    "text": " In the matter of, I think it was four hours,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8364.18,
    "end": 8367.26,
    "text": " played itself so many times and so successfully",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8367.26,
    "end": 8370.5,
    "text": " that it became the best chess playing computer.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8370.5,
    "end": 8373.76,
    "text": " Not only was, it was not only better than every human being,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8373.76,
    "end": 8376.84,
    "text": " it was better than every previous chess program",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8376.84,
    "end": 8378.66,
    "text": " in a matter of a day, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8378.66,
    "end": 8381.060000000001,
    "text": " So like that, like, so just imagine, again,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8381.060000000001,
    "end": 8383.78,
    "text": " we don't have to recapitulate everything about us,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8383.78,
    "end": 8385.62,
    "text": " but just imagine building a system",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8388.02,
    "end": 8390.54,
    "text": " and who knows when we'll be able to do this,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8390.54,
    "end": 8392.1,
    "text": " but at some point we'll be able,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8392.1,
    "end": 8396.140000000001,
    "text": " at some point the 100 or 100 favorite things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8396.140000000001,
    "end": 8401.140000000001,
    "text": " about human cognition will be analogous to chess",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " in that we will be able to build machines",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8403.980000000001,
    "end": 8408.02,
    "text": " that very quickly outperform any human",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8408.02,
    "end": 8412.18,
    "text": " and then very quickly outperform the last algorithm",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8412.18,
    "end": 8413.58,
    "text": " that outperform the humans.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8413.74,
    "end": 8417.46,
    "text": " Something like the AlphaGo experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8417.46,
    "end": 8421.539999999999,
    "text": " seems possible for facial recognition",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8421.539999999999,
    "end": 8426.039999999999,
    "text": " and detecting human emotion and natural language processing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8426.039999999999,
    "end": 8429.66,
    "text": " Right, like, well, it's just that everyone,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8429.66,
    "end": 8433.1,
    "text": " even math people, math heads,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8433.1,
    "end": 8436.539999999999,
    "text": " tend to have bad intuitions for exponentiation, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8436.539999999999,
    "end": 8437.7,
    "text": " And we noticed this during COVID.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8437.7,
    "end": 8439.22,
    "text": " I mean, you have some very smart people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8439.22,
    "end": 8442.62,
    "text": " who still couldn't get their minds around the fact",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8442.660000000002,
    "end": 8446.78,
    "text": " that an exponential is really surprising.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8446.78,
    "end": 8449.460000000001,
    "text": " I mean, things double and double and double and double again",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8449.460000000001,
    "end": 8451.220000000001,
    "text": " and you don't notice much of anything changes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8451.220000000001,
    "end": 8455.12,
    "text": " and then the last two stages of doubling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8455.12,
    "end": 8456.300000000001,
    "text": " swamp everything, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8456.300000000001,
    "end": 8460.94,
    "text": " And it just seems like that to assume",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8460.94,
    "end": 8465.94,
    "text": " that there isn't a deep analogy between what we're seeing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8466.980000000001,
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    "text": " for the more tractable problems like chess",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8471.48,
    "end": 8473.199999999999,
    "text": " to other modes of cognition.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8473.199999999999,
    "end": 8476.08,
    "text": " It's like once you crack that problem,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8476.08,
    "end": 8478.0,
    "text": " it seems because for the longest time,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8479.8,
    "end": 8482.4,
    "text": " it was impossible to think we were gonna make headway",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8482.4,
    "end": 8485.16,
    "text": " in AI, you know, it's like a-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8485.16,
    "end": 8487.6,
    "text": " Chess and Go was seen as possible.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8487.6,
    "end": 8488.84,
    "text": " Yeah, Go seemed unattainable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 8488.84,
    "end": 8491.68,
    "text": " Even when chess had been cracked,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8491.68,
    "end": 8493.439999999999,
    "text": " Go seemed unattainable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8493.439999999999,
    "end": 8496.64,
    "text": " Yeah, and actually Stuart Russell was behind",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8496.64,
    "end": 8499.0,
    "text": " the people that were saying it's unattainable.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8499.0,
    "end": 8502.88,
    "text": " Because it seemed like it's an intractable problem.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8502.88,
    "end": 8506.64,
    "text": " But there's something different about the space of cognition",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8506.64,
    "end": 8509.72,
    "text": " that's detached from human society, which is what chess is.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8509.72,
    "end": 8511.3,
    "text": " Meaning like just thinking,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8512.2,
    "end": 8515.52,
    "text": " having actual exponential impact on the physical world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8515.52,
    "end": 8516.64,
    "text": " is different.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8516.64,
    "end": 8521.2,
    "text": " I tend to believe that there's four AI",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8521.2,
    "end": 8523.76,
    "text": " to get to the point where it's super intelligent,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8523.76,
    "end": 8527.76,
    "text": " it's going to have to go through the funnel of society.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8527.76,
    "end": 8529.6,
    "text": " And for that, it has to be deeply integrated",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8529.6,
    "end": 8531.16,
    "text": " with human beings.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8531.16,
    "end": 8532.92,
    "text": " And for that, it has to be aligned.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8532.92,
    "end": 8535.6,
    "text": " But even you're talking about like actually hooking us up",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8535.6,
    "end": 8536.84,
    "text": " to like the neural link, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8536.84,
    "end": 8541.84,
    "text": " where it's gonna be the brainstem to the robot overlords?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8542.2,
    "end": 8543.4,
    "text": " That's a possibility as well.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8543.4,
    "end": 8546.24,
    "text": " But what I mean is in order to develop",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8546.24,
    "end": 8548.880000000001,
    "text": " autonomous weapon systems, for example,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8548.880000000001,
    "end": 8551.32,
    "text": " which are highly concerning to me,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8551.32,
    "end": 8554.78,
    "text": " that both US and China are participating in it now,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8554.78,
    "end": 8556.72,
    "text": " that in order to develop them",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8556.76,
    "end": 8560.199999999999,
    "text": " and for them to have more and more responsibility",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8560.199999999999,
    "end": 8564.56,
    "text": " to actually do military strategic actions,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8564.56,
    "end": 8568.0,
    "text": " they're going to have to be integrated",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8568.0,
    "end": 8571.8,
    "text": " into human beings doing the strategic action.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8571.8,
    "end": 8574.199999999999,
    "text": " They're going to have to work alongside with each other.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8574.199999999999,
    "end": 8576.519999999999,
    "text": " And the way those systems will be developed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8576.519999999999,
    "end": 8580.16,
    "text": " will have the natural safety, like switches",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8580.16,
    "end": 8583.119999999999,
    "text": " that are placed on them as they develop over time,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8583.119999999999,
    "end": 8585.4,
    "text": " because they're going to have to convince humans.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8585.4,
    "end": 8587.84,
    "text": " Ultimately, they're going to have to convince humans",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8587.84,
    "end": 8590.52,
    "text": " that this is safer than humans.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8590.52,
    "end": 8592.359999999999,
    "text": " They're going to, you know.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8592.359999999999,
    "end": 8595.74,
    "text": " Well, self-driving cars is a good test case here,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8595.74,
    "end": 8599.64,
    "text": " because obviously we've made a lot of progress",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8599.64,
    "end": 8604.64,
    "text": " and we can imagine what total progress would look like.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8604.96,
    "end": 8605.92,
    "text": " I mean, it would be amazing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8605.92,
    "end": 8610.92,
    "text": " And it's canceling in the US 40,000 deaths every year",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8611.4,
    "end": 8613.16,
    "text": " based on ape-driven cars, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8613.44,
    "end": 8616.68,
    "text": " It's an excruciating problem that we've all gotten used to",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8616.68,
    "end": 8618.44,
    "text": " because it was no alternative.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8618.44,
    "end": 8621.68,
    "text": " But now we can dimly see the prospect of an alternative,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8621.68,
    "end": 8625.8,
    "text": " which if it works in a super intelligent fashion,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8625.8,
    "end": 8629.0,
    "text": " maybe we go down to zero highway deaths, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8629.0,
    "end": 8632.0,
    "text": " Or certainly we go down by orders of magnitude, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8632.0,
    "end": 8637.0,
    "text": " So maybe we have 400 rather than 40,000 a year.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8637.72,
    "end": 8642.72,
    "text": " And it's easy to see that there's not a missile.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8645.44,
    "end": 8648.04,
    "text": " So obviously this is not an example of super intelligence.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8648.04,
    "end": 8649.24,
    "text": " This is narrow intelligence.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8649.24,
    "end": 8654.24,
    "text": " But the alignment problem isn't so obvious there,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8655.04,
    "end": 8657.72,
    "text": " but there are potential alignment problems there.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8657.72,
    "end": 8662.6,
    "text": " Like, so like just imagine if some woke team of engineers",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8662.6,
    "end": 8666.72,
    "text": " decided that we have to tune the algorithm some way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8667.359999999999,
    "end": 8670.119999999999,
    "text": " There are situations where the car has to decide who to hit.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8670.119999999999,
    "end": 8671.599999999999,
    "text": " I mean, there's just bad outcomes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8671.599999999999,
    "end": 8674.039999999999,
    "text": " where you're gonna hit somebody, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8674.039999999999,
    "end": 8676.8,
    "text": " Now we have a car that can tell what race you are, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8676.8,
    "end": 8678.199999999999,
    "text": " So we're gonna build the car",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8678.199999999999,
    "end": 8680.439999999999,
    "text": " to preferentially hit white people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8680.439999999999,
    "end": 8682.119999999999,
    "text": " because white people have had so much privilege",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8682.119999999999,
    "end": 8683.32,
    "text": " over the years.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8683.32,
    "end": 8684.92,
    "text": " This seems like the only ethical way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8684.92,
    "end": 8687.32,
    "text": " to kind of redress those wrongs of the past.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8687.32,
    "end": 8688.84,
    "text": " That's something that could get,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8688.84,
    "end": 8693.24,
    "text": " one, that could get produced as an artifact, presumably,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8693.24,
    "end": 8694.08,
    "text": " of just how you built it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8694.08,
    "end": 8696.519999999999,
    "text": " And you didn't even know you engineered it that way, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8697.52,
    "end": 8698.92,
    "text": " Your machine learning.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8698.92,
    "end": 8700.68,
    "text": " You put some kind of constraints on it",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8700.68,
    "end": 8702.44,
    "text": " to where it creates those kinds of outcomes.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8702.44,
    "end": 8705.12,
    "text": " You basically built a racist algorithm",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8705.12,
    "end": 8706.4,
    "text": " and you didn't even intend to,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8706.4,
    "end": 8707.92,
    "text": " or you could intend to, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8707.92,
    "end": 8709.720000000001,
    "text": " And it would be aligned with some people's values,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8709.720000000001,
    "end": 8711.92,
    "text": " but misaligned with other people's values.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8713.48,
    "end": 8716.48,
    "text": " But it's like there are interesting problems",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8716.48,
    "end": 8717.960000000001,
    "text": " even with something as simple",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8717.960000000001,
    "end": 8720.560000000001,
    "text": " and obviously good as self-driving cars.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8720.560000000001,
    "end": 8723.640000000001,
    "text": " But there's a leap that I just think it'd be exact,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8723.640000000001,
    "end": 8725.36,
    "text": " but those are human problems.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8725.36,
    "end": 8727.0,
    "text": " I just don't think there'll be a leap",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8727.0,
    "end": 8728.6,
    "text": " with autonomous vehicles.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8729.720000000001,
    "end": 8733.960000000001,
    "text": " First of all, sorry, there are a lot of trajectories",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8733.960000000001,
    "end": 8735.800000000001,
    "text": " which will destroy human civilization.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8735.800000000001,
    "end": 8738.16,
    "text": " The argument I'm making, it's more likely",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8738.16,
    "end": 8740.08,
    "text": " that we'll take trajectories that don't.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8740.08,
    "end": 8741.92,
    "text": " So I don't think there'll be a leap",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8741.92,
    "end": 8743.04,
    "text": " with autonomous vehicles",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8743.04,
    "end": 8746.0,
    "text": " will all of a sudden start murdering pedestrians",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8746.0,
    "end": 8749.32,
    "text": " because once every human on earth is dead,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8749.32,
    "end": 8750.68,
    "text": " there'll be no more fatality,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8750.68,
    "end": 8752.84,
    "text": " sort of unintended consequences of,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8752.84,
    "end": 8755.16,
    "text": " and it's difficult to take that leap.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8755.56,
    "end": 8757.24,
    "text": " Most systems as we develop",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8757.24,
    "end": 8759.2,
    "text": " and they become much, much more intelligent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8759.2,
    "end": 8761.36,
    "text": " in ways that'll be incredibly surprising,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8761.36,
    "end": 8764.56,
    "text": " like stuff that's DeepMind is doing with protein folding,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8765.56,
    "end": 8767.92,
    "text": " even which is scary to think about,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8767.92,
    "end": 8769.6,
    "text": " and I'm personally terrified about this,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8769.6,
    "end": 8771.48,
    "text": " which is the engineering of viruses",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8771.48,
    "end": 8772.84,
    "text": " using machine learning,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8772.84,
    "end": 8776.96,
    "text": " the engineering of vaccines using machine learning,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8776.96,
    "end": 8780.92,
    "text": " the engineering of, yeah, for research purposes,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8780.92,
    "end": 8783.8,
    "text": " pathogens using machine learning,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8783.800000000001,
    "end": 8785.160000000002,
    "text": " like the ways that can go wrong.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8785.160000000002,
    "end": 8787.480000000001,
    "text": " I just think that there's always going to be",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8787.480000000001,
    "end": 8790.880000000001,
    "text": " a closed loop supervision of humans",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8790.880000000001,
    "end": 8793.640000000001,
    "text": " before they become super intelligent.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8793.640000000001,
    "end": 8798.320000000002,
    "text": " Not always, much more likely to be supervision,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8798.320000000002,
    "end": 8800.6,
    "text": " except of course, the question is",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8800.6,
    "end": 8802.2,
    "text": " how many dumb people there are in the world,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8802.2,
    "end": 8804.52,
    "text": " how many evil people are in the world?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8804.52,
    "end": 8808.880000000001,
    "text": " My theory, my hope is, my sense is",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8808.880000000001,
    "end": 8810.720000000001,
    "text": " that the number of intelligent people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8810.720000000001,
    "end": 8813.080000000002,
    "text": " is much higher than the number of dumb people,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8813.960000000001,
    "end": 8817.76,
    "text": " than not a program, and the number of evil people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8817.76,
    "end": 8820.000000000002,
    "text": " I think smart people and kind people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8820.000000000002,
    "end": 8823.320000000002,
    "text": " over all number of the others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 8823.320000000002,
    "end": 8826.400000000001,
    "text": " Except we also, we have to add another group of people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8826.400000000001,
    "end": 8829.960000000001,
    "text": " which are just the smart and otherwise good,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8829.960000000001,
    "end": 8832.240000000002,
    "text": " but reckless people, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8832.240000000002,
    "end": 8835.52,
    "text": " The people who will flip a switch on,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8835.52,
    "end": 8837.720000000001,
    "text": " not knowing what's going to happen,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8837.720000000001,
    "end": 8839.12,
    "text": " they're just kind of hoping",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8839.12,
    "end": 8840.560000000001,
    "text": " that it's not going to blow up the world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8840.560000000001,
    "end": 8843.400000000001,
    "text": " We already know that some of our smartest people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8843.4,
    "end": 8844.76,
    "text": " are those sorts of people.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8844.76,
    "end": 8846.199999999999,
    "text": " We know we've done experiments,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8846.199999999999,
    "end": 8847.76,
    "text": " and this is something that Martin Rees",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8847.76,
    "end": 8852.76,
    "text": " was whinging about before the Large Hadron Collider",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8853.16,
    "end": 8854.8,
    "text": " got booted up, I think.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8855.98,
    "end": 8858.8,
    "text": " We know there are people who are entertaining experiments",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8858.8,
    "end": 8860.08,
    "text": " or even performing experiments",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8860.08,
    "end": 8864.96,
    "text": " where there's some chance, not quite infinitesimal,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8866.6,
    "end": 8868.92,
    "text": " that they're going to create a black hole in the lab",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8868.92,
    "end": 8870.88,
    "text": " and suck the whole world into it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8871.720000000001,
    "end": 8875.920000000002,
    "text": " You're not a crazy person to worry about that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8875.920000000002,
    "end": 8880.920000000002,
    "text": " based on the physics, and so it was with the Trinity test.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8881.640000000001,
    "end": 8884.080000000002,
    "text": " There were some people who were still",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8884.080000000002,
    "end": 8887.240000000002,
    "text": " checking their calculations, and they were off.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8887.240000000002,
    "end": 8890.720000000001,
    "text": " We did nuclear tests where we were off significantly",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8890.720000000001,
    "end": 8892.04,
    "text": " in terms of the yield, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8892.04,
    "end": 8892.880000000001,
    "text": " So it was like-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8892.880000000001,
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    "text": " And they still flipped the switch.",
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  {
    "start": 8893.84,
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    "text": " Yeah, they still flipped the switch,",
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  {
    "start": 8895.04,
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    "text": " and sometimes they flip the switch",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8896.68,
    "end": 8901.68,
    "text": " not to win a world war or to save 40,000 lives a year.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8903.0,
    "end": 8903.84,
    "text": " They just-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8903.84,
    "end": 8904.68,
    "text": " Just to see what happens.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 8904.68,
    "end": 8906.12,
    "text": " Intellectual curiosity.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8906.12,
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    "text": " This is what I got my grant for.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8907.800000000001,
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    "text": " This is where I'll get my Nobel Prize",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8910.2,
    "end": 8912.14,
    "text": " if that's in the cards.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8913.04,
    "end": 8915.64,
    "text": " It's on the other side of the switch, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8915.64,
    "end": 8920.64,
    "text": " And again, we are apes with egos",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8921.16,
    "end": 8926.16,
    "text": " who are massively constrained by very short-term",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8928.96,
    "end": 8931.8,
    "text": " self-interest even when we're contemplating",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8931.8,
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    "text": " some of the deepest and most interesting",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8933.76,
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    "text": " and most universal problems",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8937.76,
    "end": 8940.64,
    "text": " we could ever set our attention towards.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8940.64,
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    "text": " Just if you read James Watson's book,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8943.119999999999,
    "end": 8944.279999999999,
    "text": " The Double Helix, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8944.279999999999,
    "end": 8948.68,
    "text": " About them cracking the structure of DNA.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8949.68,
    "end": 8951.52,
    "text": " One thing that's amazing about that book",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8951.52,
    "end": 8955.92,
    "text": " is just how much of it, almost all of it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8955.92,
    "end": 8960.92,
    "text": " is being driven by very apish egocentric social concerns.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8966.52,
    "end": 8970.52,
    "text": " The algorithm that is producing this scientific breakthrough",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8970.52,
    "end": 8974.12,
    "text": " is human competition if you're James Watson, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8974.12,
    "end": 8976.44,
    "text": " It's like, I'm gonna get there before Linus Pauling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8976.52,
    "end": 8981.52,
    "text": " and it's just, so much of his bandwidth",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 8981.960000000001,
    "end": 8983.24,
    "text": " is captured by that, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 8983.24,
    "end": 8988.24,
    "text": " Now that becomes more and more of a liability",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8991.02,
    "end": 8993.6,
    "text": " when you're talking about producing technology",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8993.6,
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    "text": " that can change everything in an instant.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 8996.12,
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    "text": " We're talking about not only understanding,",
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    "start": 9002.28,
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    "text": " we're just at a different moment in human history.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9004.0,
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    "text": " We're not, when we're doing research on viruses,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9010.88,
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    "text": " we're now doing the kind of research",
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    "text": " that can cause someone somewhere else",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9016.16,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9019.72,
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    "text": " or it's just, I don't know, I mean, our power is,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9026.24,
    "end": 9029.36,
    "text": " our wisdom, it does not seem like our wisdom",
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  {
    "start": 9029.36,
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    "text": " is scaling with our power, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9031.2,
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    "text": " And that seems like, insofar as wisdom and power",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9036.400000000001,
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    "text": " become unaligned, I get more and more concerned.",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " some of the most compelling apes, two compelling apes,",
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    "start": 9051.800000000001,
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    "text": " and you've had a fun conversation about religion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " I'm not sure there was any.",
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    "text": " We didn't solve anything.",
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    "start": 9063.920000000002,
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    "text": " If anything was ever solved.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 9065.160000000002,
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    "text": " So is there something like a charitable summary",
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    "start": 9069.52,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9073.080000000002,
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    "text": " and disagree with Jordan?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Is there something maybe after that conversation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 9085.32,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Is there something that you can kind of pull out",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 9091.4,
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    "text": " from those conversations or is it to be continued?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " religious beliefs and frameworks are holding so much,",
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    "text": " such a repository of human wisdom",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9115.439999999999,
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    "text": " that we pull at that fabric at our peril, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Like if you start just unraveling Christianity",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " the unscientific bits, but you could be pulling a lot more",
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    "text": " to which everything you care about is attached as a society.",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And it's so clear how we could have a 21st century",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " rational conversation about the good stuff",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that we really can radically edit these traditions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " And we can take Jesus in half his moods",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9167.7,
    "end": 9171.12,
    "text": " and just find a great inspirational,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9173.34,
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    "text": " Iron Age thought leader",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " but he could be somewhat like the Beatitudes",
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    "text": " and the Golden Rule, which doesn't originate with him,",
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    "start": 9183.7,
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    "text": " but which he put quite beautifully.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " All of that's incredibly useful.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9189.820000000002,
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    "text": " It's no less useful than it was 2000 years ago,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " but we don't have to believe he was born of a virgin",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " or coming back to raise the dead or any of that other stuff.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9198.72,
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    "text": " And we can be honest about not believing those things.",
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    "start": 9201.48,
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    "text": " And we can be honest about the reasons",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " why we don't believe those things.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9204.68,
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    "text": " Because on those fronts, I view the downside to be so obvious",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9211.16,
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    "text": " and the fact that we have so many different",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9214.88,
    "end": 9218.56,
    "text": " competing dogmatisms on offer to be so non-functional,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9218.56,
    "end": 9220.84,
    "text": " I mean, it's so divisive.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9220.84,
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    "text": " It just has conflict built into it",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9223.98,
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    "text": " that I think we can be far more",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9227.18,
    "end": 9231.66,
    "text": " and should be far more iconoclastic than he wants to be.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9231.66,
    "end": 9235.66,
    "text": " Now, none of this is to deny much of what he argues for",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9237.66,
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    "text": " that stories are very powerful.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9239.9,
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    "text": " I mean, clearly stories are powerful",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and we want good stories.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9243.46,
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    "text": " We want our lives.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9244.859999999999,
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    "text": " We want to have a conversation with ourselves",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9247.02,
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    "text": " and with one another about our lives",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9250.14,
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    "text": " that facilitates the best possible lives.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9253.52,
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    "text": " And story is part of that, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9255.560000000001,
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    "text": " And if you want some of those stories to sound like myths,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9261.24,
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    "text": " that might be part of it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9262.720000000001,
    "end": 9266.26,
    "text": " But my argument is that we never really need",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9266.26,
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    "text": " to deceive ourselves or our children",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " about what we have every reason to believe is true",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9272.58,
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    "text": " in order to get at the good stuff,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9274.04,
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    "text": " in order to organize our lives well.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9275.960000000001,
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    "text": " So I certainly don't feel that I need to do it personally.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9279.28,
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    "text": " And if I don't need to do it personally,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9281.16,
    "end": 9283.4,
    "text": " why would I think that billions of other people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9283.42,
    "end": 9285.52,
    "text": " need to do it personally, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9285.52,
    "end": 9288.699999999999,
    "text": " Now, there is a cynical counter argument,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9288.699999999999,
    "end": 9292.56,
    "text": " which is billions of other people don't have the advantages",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9292.56,
    "end": 9294.32,
    "text": " that I have had in my life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9294.32,
    "end": 9297.72,
    "text": " The billions of other people are not as well educated.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9297.72,
    "end": 9299.359999999999,
    "text": " They haven't had the same opportunities.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9299.359999999999,
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    "text": " They need to be told that Jesus is gonna solve",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9304.6,
    "end": 9306.68,
    "text": " all their problems after they die, say,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9306.68,
    "end": 9310.76,
    "text": " or that everything happens for a reason.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9310.76,
    "end": 9314.08,
    "text": " And if you just believe in the secret,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9314.08,
    "end": 9315.32,
    "text": " if you just visualize what you want,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9315.32,
    "end": 9316.28,
    "text": " you're gonna get it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9316.28,
    "end": 9321.28,
    "text": " And it's like there's some measure of what I consider",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9321.9,
    "end": 9326.0,
    "text": " to be odious Pamplum that really is food",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9326.0,
    "end": 9327.380000000001,
    "text": " for the better part of humanity.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9327.380000000001,
    "end": 9329.24,
    "text": " And there is no substitute for it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9329.24,
    "end": 9331.04,
    "text": " or there's no substitute now.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9331.04,
    "end": 9332.52,
    "text": " And I don't know if Jordan would agree with that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9332.52,
    "end": 9335.24,
    "text": " but much of what he says seems to suggest",
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    "start": 9335.24,
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    "text": " that he would agree with it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9337.4,
    "end": 9341.16,
    "text": " And I guess that's an empirical question.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9341.16,
    "end": 9343.32,
    "text": " I mean, that's just that we don't know",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9343.32,
    "end": 9347.08,
    "text": " whether given a different set of norms",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9347.08,
    "end": 9348.599999999999,
    "text": " and a different set of stories,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9349.699999999999,
    "end": 9352.88,
    "text": " people would behave the way I would hope they would behave",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9352.88,
    "end": 9356.119999999999,
    "text": " and be aligned, more aligned than they are now.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9356.119999999999,
    "end": 9360.24,
    "text": " I think we know what happens when you just let",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9361.4,
    "end": 9366.4,
    "text": " ancient religious certainties go uncriticized.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9366.44,
    "end": 9367.88,
    "text": " We know what that world's like.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9367.88,
    "end": 9370.68,
    "text": " We've been struggling to get out of that world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9370.68,
    "end": 9372.18,
    "text": " for a couple of hundred years,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9372.18,
    "end": 9375.92,
    "text": " but we know what having Europe",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9378.8,
    "end": 9381.92,
    "text": " riven by religious wars looks like.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9381.92,
    "end": 9385.32,
    "text": " And we know what happens when those religions",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9385.32,
    "end": 9389.84,
    "text": " become kind of pseudo religions and political religions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9389.84,
    "end": 9393.88,
    "text": " So this is where I'm sure Jordan and I would debate.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9393.880000000001,
    "end": 9397.160000000002,
    "text": " He would say that Stalin was a symptom of atheism",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9397.160000000002,
    "end": 9398.000000000002,
    "text": " and that's not at all.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9398.000000000002,
    "end": 9399.880000000001,
    "text": " I mean, it's not my kind of atheism, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9399.880000000001,
    "end": 9404.080000000002,
    "text": " Like Stalin, the problem with the Gulag",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9404.080000000002,
    "end": 9408.240000000002,
    "text": " and the experiment with communism or Stalinism",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9409.28,
    "end": 9413.26,
    "text": " or with Nazism was not that there was so much",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9413.26,
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    "text": " scientific rigor and self criticism and honesty",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9416.84,
    "end": 9421.84,
    "text": " and introspection and judicious use of psychedelics.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9422.84,
    "end": 9426.84,
    "text": " I mean, like that was not the problem in Hitler's Germany",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9426.84,
    "end": 9430.28,
    "text": " or in Stalin's Soviet Union.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9432.8,
    "end": 9436.880000000001,
    "text": " The problem was you have other ideas",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9436.880000000001,
    "end": 9441.880000000001,
    "text": " that capture a similar kind of mob based dogmatic energy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9443.52,
    "end": 9447.8,
    "text": " And yes, the results of all of that",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9447.8,
    "end": 9450.64,
    "text": " are predictably murderous.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9450.64,
    "end": 9453.599999999999,
    "text": " Well, the question is what is the source",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9453.599999999999,
    "end": 9457.859999999999,
    "text": " of the most viral and sticky stories",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9457.859999999999,
    "end": 9460.359999999999,
    "text": " that ultimately lead to a positive outcome?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9460.359999999999,
    "end": 9464.56,
    "text": " So communism was, I mean, having grown up in the Soviet Union,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9465.439999999999,
    "end": 9470.439999999999,
    "text": " even still having relatives in Russia,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9471.56,
    "end": 9474.0,
    "text": " there's a stickiness to the nationalism",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9474.0,
    "end": 9478.72,
    "text": " and to the ideologies of communism that religious or not,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9478.72,
    "end": 9480.4,
    "text": " you could say it's religious for forever.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9480.48,
    "end": 9485.48,
    "text": " I could just say it's stories that are viral and sticky.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9486.48,
    "end": 9489.039999999999,
    "text": " I don't know, I'm using the most horrible words,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9489.039999999999,
    "end": 9492.42,
    "text": " but the question is whether science and reason",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9492.42,
    "end": 9494.52,
    "text": " can generate viral sticky stories",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9494.52,
    "end": 9497.08,
    "text": " that give meaning to people's lives.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9497.08,
    "end": 9499.779999999999,
    "text": " That's in your sense as it does.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9500.8,
    "end": 9505.8,
    "text": " Well, whatever is true ultimately should be captivating.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9506.76,
    "end": 9511.76,
    "text": " What's more captivating than whatever is real?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9514.44,
    "end": 9516.800000000001,
    "text": " Because reality is, again,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9516.800000000001,
    "end": 9521.12,
    "text": " we're just climbing out of the darkness",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9521.12,
    "end": 9523.12,
    "text": " in terms of our understanding of what the hell is going on.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9523.12,
    "end": 9527.44,
    "text": " And there's no telling what spooky things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9527.44,
    "end": 9528.36,
    "text": " may in fact be true.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9528.36,
    "end": 9530.04,
    "text": " I mean, I don't know if you've been on the receiving end",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9530.04,
    "end": 9535.04,
    "text": " of recent rumors about our conversation about UFOs",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9535.2,
    "end": 9537.68,
    "text": " very likely changing in the near term, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9537.68,
    "end": 9540.2,
    "text": " But there was just a Washington Post article",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9540.2,
    "end": 9541.400000000001,
    "text": " and a New Yorker article,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9541.400000000001,
    "end": 9544.52,
    "text": " and I've received some private outreach,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9544.52,
    "end": 9545.68,
    "text": " and perhaps you have,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9545.68,
    "end": 9550.28,
    "text": " I know other people in our orbit have people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9550.28,
    "end": 9553.04,
    "text": " who are claiming that the government has known",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9553.04,
    "end": 9557.640000000001,
    "text": " much more about UFOs than they have let on until now.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9557.640000000001,
    "end": 9559.400000000001,
    "text": " And this conversation is actually,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9559.400000000001,
    "end": 9561.76,
    "text": " is about to become more prominent.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9561.76,
    "end": 9565.44,
    "text": " And it's not gonna be whatever,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9566.44,
    "end": 9568.6,
    "text": " whoever's left standing when the music stops,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9568.6,
    "end": 9573.6,
    "text": " it's not going to be a comfortable position to be in",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9574.12,
    "end": 9579.12,
    "text": " as a super rigorous scientific skeptic saying there's no,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9580.12,
    "end": 9581.7,
    "text": " who's been saying there's no there there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9581.7,
    "end": 9583.6,
    "text": " for the last 75 years, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9585.800000000001,
    "end": 9589.16,
    "text": " The short version is it sounds like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9589.16,
    "end": 9591.24,
    "text": " the Office of Naval Intelligence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9591.24,
    "end": 9595.08,
    "text": " and the Pentagon are very likely to say to Congress",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9595.08,
    "end": 9596.74,
    "text": " at some point in the not too distant future",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9596.74,
    "end": 9600.92,
    "text": " that we have evidence that there is technology",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9600.92,
    "end": 9605.92,
    "text": " flying around here that seems like it can't possibly,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9606.199999999999,
    "end": 9608.6,
    "text": " possibly be of human origin, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9608.6,
    "end": 9610.08,
    "text": " Now, I don't know what I'm gonna do",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9610.08,
    "end": 9611.4,
    "text": " with that kind of disclosure, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9611.4,
    "end": 9613.16,
    "text": " Maybe it's just, it's gonna,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9613.16,
    "end": 9616.72,
    "text": " there's gonna be nothing, no follow on conversation",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9616.72,
    "end": 9621.08,
    "text": " to really have, but that is such a powerfully strange",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9621.2,
    "end": 9623.0,
    "text": " circumstance to be in, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9623.0,
    "end": 9625.48,
    "text": " I mean, it's just, what are we gonna do with that?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9625.48,
    "end": 9628.4,
    "text": " If in fact, that's what happens, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9628.4,
    "end": 9631.76,
    "text": " If in fact, the considered opinion,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9631.76,
    "end": 9635.039999999999,
    "text": " despite the embarrassment it causes them",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9635.039999999999,
    "end": 9638.56,
    "text": " of the US government, of all of our intelligence,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9638.56,
    "end": 9640.44,
    "text": " all of the relevant intelligence services",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9640.44,
    "end": 9644.88,
    "text": " is that this isn't a hoax, it's too,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9644.88,
    "end": 9647.02,
    "text": " there's too much data to suggest that it's a hoax.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9647.02,
    "end": 9648.78,
    "text": " We've got too much radar imagery.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9648.78,
    "end": 9651.18,
    "text": " There's too much satellite data,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9651.18,
    "end": 9653.74,
    "text": " whatever data they actually have.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9653.74,
    "end": 9655.54,
    "text": " There's too much of it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9655.54,
    "end": 9658.7,
    "text": " All we can say now is something's going on",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9658.7,
    "end": 9663.7,
    "text": " and there's no way it's the Chinese or the Russians",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9663.7,
    "end": 9666.140000000001,
    "text": " or anyone else's technology.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9667.060000000001,
    "end": 9672.060000000001,
    "text": " That should arrest our attention collectively",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9672.7,
    "end": 9675.76,
    "text": " to a degree that nothing in our lifetime has.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9675.78,
    "end": 9680.78,
    "text": " And now one worries that we're so jaded and confused",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9682.26,
    "end": 9687.26,
    "text": " and distracted that it's gonna get much less coverage",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9688.16,
    "end": 9693.16,
    "text": " than Obama's tan suit did a bunch of years ago.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9694.74,
    "end": 9698.52,
    "text": " It's just, who knows how we'll respond to that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9698.52,
    "end": 9701.52,
    "text": " but it's just to say that the need for us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9702.36,
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    "text": " to tell ourselves an honest story about what's going on",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 9710.12,
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    "text": " and what's likely to happen next",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9712.02,
    "end": 9714.060000000001,
    "text": " is never gonna go away, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9714.060000000001,
    "end": 9716.48,
    "text": " And it's important, it's just,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 9716.48,
    "end": 9719.16,
    "text": " the division between me and every person",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9719.16,
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    "text": " who's defending traditional religion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9720.880000000001,
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    "text": " is where is it that you wanna lie to yourself",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9727.7,
    "end": 9729.08,
    "text": " or lie to your kids?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9729.28,
    "end": 9731.44,
    "text": " Where is honesty a liability?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 9731.44,
    "end": 9736.44,
    "text": " And for me, I've yet to find the place where it is.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9737.2,
    "end": 9741.0,
    "text": " And it's so obviously a strength",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9741.88,
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    "text": " in almost every other circumstance",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9744.16,
    "end": 9748.12,
    "text": " because it is the thing that allows you to course correct.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9748.12,
    "end": 9753.06,
    "text": " It is the thing that allows you to hope at least",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 9753.06,
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    "text": " that your beliefs, that your stories",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9754.84,
    "end": 9757.3,
    "text": " are in some kind of calibration",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9757.300000000001,
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    "text": " with what's actually going on in the world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9760.420000000002,
    "end": 9762.300000000001,
    "text": " Yeah, it is a little bit sad to imagine",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9762.300000000001,
    "end": 9767.300000000001,
    "text": " that if aliens on mass showed up to earth,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9767.380000000001,
    "end": 9770.580000000002,
    "text": " that would be too preoccupied with political bickering",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9770.580000000002,
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    "text": " or to like these fake news and all that kind of stuff",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9774.900000000001,
    "end": 9779.580000000002,
    "text": " to notice the very basic evidence of reality.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9779.580000000002,
    "end": 9783.500000000002,
    "text": " I do have a glimmer of hope that there seems",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9783.500000000002,
    "end": 9786.500000000002,
    "text": " to be more and more hunger for authenticity.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9786.5,
    "end": 9788.54,
    "text": " And I feel like that opens the door",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9789.66,
    "end": 9794.1,
    "text": " for a hunger for what is real.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9794.1,
    "end": 9795.74,
    "text": " Like they have people don't want story,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9795.74,
    "end": 9799.74,
    "text": " they don't want like layers and layers of like fakeness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9800.94,
    "end": 9804.84,
    "text": " And I'm hoping that means that will directly lead",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9804.84,
    "end": 9808.34,
    "text": " to a greater hunger for reality and reason and truth.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9808.34,
    "end": 9811.54,
    "text": " You know, truth isn't dogmatism.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9811.54,
    "end": 9815.46,
    "text": " Like truth isn't authority, I have a PhD",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9815.460000000001,
    "end": 9817.140000000001,
    "text": " and therefore I'm right.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9818.460000000001,
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    "text": " Truth is almost the, like the reality is",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9822.660000000002,
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    "text": " there's so many questions, there's so many mysteries,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 9824.54,
    "end": 9825.54,
    "text": " there's so much uncertainty.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9825.54,
    "end": 9829.460000000001,
    "text": " This is our best available, like a best guess.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9829.460000000001,
    "end": 9832.160000000002,
    "text": " And we have a lot of evidence that supports that guess,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9832.160000000002,
    "end": 9833.900000000001,
    "text": " but it could be so many other things.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9833.900000000001,
    "end": 9836.460000000001,
    "text": " And like just even conveying that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9836.460000000001,
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    "text": " I think there's a hunger for that in the world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9838.880000000001,
    "end": 9841.500000000002,
    "text": " to hear that from scientists, less dogmatism",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9841.500000000002,
    "end": 9845.02,
    "text": " and more just like, this is what we know.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9845.02,
    "end": 9847.94,
    "text": " We're doing our best given the uncertainty given.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9847.94,
    "end": 9850.7,
    "text": " I mean, this is true with obviously with the virology",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9850.7,
    "end": 9851.92,
    "text": " and all those kinds of things,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9851.92,
    "end": 9853.460000000001,
    "text": " because everything is happening so fast.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9853.460000000001,
    "end": 9856.58,
    "text": " There's a lot of, and biology is super messy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9856.58,
    "end": 9858.92,
    "text": " So it's very hard to know stuff for sure.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9858.92,
    "end": 9861.1,
    "text": " So just being open and real about that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9861.1,
    "end": 9865.74,
    "text": " I think I'm hoping will change people's hunger",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9865.74,
    "end": 9869.62,
    "text": " and openness and trust of what's real.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9869.62,
    "end": 9871.94,
    "text": " Yeah, well, so much of this is probabilistic.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9871.94,
    "end": 9874.44,
    "text": " It's even so much of what can seem dogmatic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9874.44,
    "end": 9878.560000000001,
    "text": " scientifically is just, you're placing a bet",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9878.560000000001,
    "end": 9883.560000000001,
    "text": " on whether it's worth reading that paper",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9883.68,
    "end": 9886.560000000001,
    "text": " or rethinking your presuppositions on that point.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9886.560000000001,
    "end": 9890.04,
    "text": " You know, it's not a fundamental closure to data.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9890.04,
    "end": 9892.800000000001,
    "text": " It's just that there's so much data on one side",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9892.800000000001,
    "end": 9895.640000000001,
    "text": " or so much would have to change",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9895.640000000001,
    "end": 9896.92,
    "text": " in terms of your understanding",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9896.92,
    "end": 9898.44,
    "text": " of what you think you understand",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 9898.44,
    "end": 9900.0,
    "text": " about the nature of the world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9900.0,
    "end": 9902.32,
    "text": " If this new fact were so,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9902.32,
    "end": 9906.199999999999,
    "text": " that you can pretty quickly say,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9906.199999999999,
    "end": 9908.84,
    "text": " all right, that's probably bullshit, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9908.84,
    "end": 9912.48,
    "text": " And it can sound like a fundamental closure",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9912.48,
    "end": 9917.48,
    "text": " to new conversations, new evidence, new data, new argument,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9917.48,
    "end": 9918.88,
    "text": " but it's really not.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9918.88,
    "end": 9921.4,
    "text": " It's just, it really is just triaging your attention.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9921.4,
    "end": 9923.64,
    "text": " It's just like, okay, you're telling me",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9923.64,
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    "text": " that your best friend can actually read minds.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9927.279999999999,
    "end": 9930.92,
    "text": " Okay, well, that's interesting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9930.960000000001,
    "end": 9933.16,
    "text": " Let me know when that person has gone into a lab",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9933.16,
    "end": 9934.2,
    "text": " and actually proven it, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9934.2,
    "end": 9936.8,
    "text": " Like, I don't need, like, this is not the place",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9936.8,
    "end": 9938.6,
    "text": " where I need to spend the rest of my day",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9938.6,
    "end": 9941.52,
    "text": " figuring out if your buddy can read my mind, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 9941.52,
    "end": 9944.8,
    "text": " Yeah, but there's a way to communicate that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9944.8,
    "end": 9947.04,
    "text": " I think it does too often sound",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9947.04,
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    "text": " like you're completely closed off to ideas,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9948.960000000001,
    "end": 9952.8,
    "text": " as opposed to saying like, this is, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9952.8,
    "end": 9956.12,
    "text": " as opposed to saying that there's a lot of evidence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9956.12,
    "end": 9957.3,
    "text": " in support of this,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9958.300000000001,
    "end": 9960.94,
    "text": " but you're still open-minded to other ideas.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9960.94,
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    "text": " Like, there's a way to communicate that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9962.420000000002,
    "end": 9964.660000000002,
    "text": " It's not necessarily even with words.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9964.660000000002,
    "end": 9968.140000000001,
    "text": " It's like, it's even that Joe Rogan energy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9968.140000000001,
    "end": 9970.500000000002,
    "text": " of it's entirely possible.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9970.500000000002,
    "end": 9972.78,
    "text": " Just, it's that energy of being open-minded",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9972.78,
    "end": 9974.300000000001,
    "text": " and curious like kids are.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9974.300000000001,
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    "text": " Like, this is our best understanding,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9976.500000000002,
    "end": 9979.140000000001,
    "text": " but you still are curious.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9979.140000000001,
    "end": 9982.740000000002,
    "text": " I'm not saying allocate time to exploring all those things,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9982.740000000002,
    "end": 9984.500000000002,
    "text": " but still leaving the door open.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9984.500000000002,
    "end": 9987.1,
    "text": " And there's a way to communicate that I think",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9988.1,
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    "text": " that people really hunger for.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9991.54,
    "end": 9992.7,
    "text": " Let me ask you this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9992.7,
    "end": 9995.220000000001,
    "text": " I've been recently talking a lot with John Donahue",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9995.220000000001,
    "end": 9997.26,
    "text": " from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fame.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 9997.26,
    "end": 9999.42,
    "text": " I don't know if you know who that is.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 9999.42,
    "end": 10000.26,
    "text": " In fact, I'm-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10000.26,
    "end": 10001.62,
    "text": " Talk about somebody who's good at what he does.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10001.62,
    "end": 10002.74,
    "text": " Yeah. Amazing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10002.74,
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    "text": " And he, speaking of somebody who's open-minded,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10005.58,
    "end": 10008.1,
    "text": " the reason, doing this ridiculous transition,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10008.1,
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    "text": " is for the longest time, and even still,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10010.380000000001,
    "end": 10012.66,
    "text": " a lot of people believed in the Jiu-Jitsu world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10012.66,
    "end": 10015.26,
    "text": " and grappling world that leg locks",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10015.26,
    "end": 10016.66,
    "text": " are not effective in Jiu-Jitsu.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10016.66,
    "end": 10018.42,
    "text": " And he was somebody that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10018.42,
    "end": 10021.94,
    "text": " inspired by the open-mindedness of Dean Lister,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10021.94,
    "end": 10024.06,
    "text": " famously to him, said,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10024.06,
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    "text": " why do you only consider half the human body",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10026.94,
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    "text": " when you're trying to do the submissions?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10028.619999999999,
    "end": 10030.42,
    "text": " He developed an entire system",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10030.42,
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    "text": " on this other half of the human body.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10032.539999999999,
    "end": 10035.34,
    "text": " Anyway, I do that absurd transition",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10035.34,
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    "text": " to ask you, because you're also a student",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10038.86,
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    "text": " in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10040.14,
    "end": 10042.14,
    "text": " is there something you could say",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10042.14,
    "end": 10043.86,
    "text": " how that has affected your life,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10043.86,
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    "text": " what you've learned from grappling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10046.66,
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    "text": " from the martial arts?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10047.980000000001,
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    "text": " Well, it's actually a great transition",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10049.34,
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    "text": " because I think one of the things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that's so beautiful about Jiu-Jitsu",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10055.7,
    "end": 10059.54,
    "text": " is that it does what we wish we could do",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10059.54,
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    "text": " in every other area of life,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10061.980000000001,
    "end": 10063.86,
    "text": " where we're talking about this difference",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10063.86,
    "end": 10066.94,
    "text": " between knowledge and ignorance, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10066.94,
    "end": 10071.74,
    "text": " Like, there's no room for bullshit, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10071.74,
    "end": 10073.9,
    "text": " You don't get any credit for bullshit.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10073.9,
    "end": 10075.74,
    "text": " There's the difference,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " but the amazing thing about Jiu-Jitsu",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " is that the difference between knowing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " what's going on and what to do",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and not knowing it is as,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10086.3,
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    "text": " the gulf between those two states",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10088.1,
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    "text": " is as wide as it is in anything in human life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10094.539999999999,
    "end": 10099.06,
    "text": " And it's spanned, it can be spanned so quickly.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 10099.699999999999,
    "end": 10102.34,
    "text": " Like, each increment of knowledge",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10102.34,
    "end": 10104.74,
    "text": " can be doled out in five minutes.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10104.74,
    "end": 10107.5,
    "text": " It's like, here's the thing that got you killed",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10107.5,
    "end": 10110.98,
    "text": " and here's how to prevent it from happening to you",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10110.98,
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    "text": " and here's how to do it to others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10113.019999999999,
    "end": 10117.06,
    "text": " And you just get this amazing cadence",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10117.06,
    "end": 10120.22,
    "text": " of discovering your fatal ignorance",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10120.22,
    "end": 10124.5,
    "text": " and then having it remedied with the actual technique.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10126.14,
    "end": 10128.14,
    "text": " And I mean, just for people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10128.22,
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    "text": " who don't know what we're talking about,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10129.06,
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    "text": " it's just like this, the simple circumstances,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10131.3,
    "end": 10133.06,
    "text": " like someone's got you in a headlock,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10133.06,
    "end": 10134.859999999999,
    "text": " how do you get out of that, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10134.859999999999,
    "end": 10136.82,
    "text": " Someone's sitting on your chest",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10136.82,
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    "text": " and they're in the mount position",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10139.06,
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    "text": " and you're on the bottom and you wanna get away,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10141.699999999999,
    "end": 10142.98,
    "text": " how do you get them off you?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10142.98,
    "end": 10147.34,
    "text": " They're sitting on, your intuitions about how to do this",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10147.34,
    "end": 10149.099999999999,
    "text": " are terrible, even if you've done",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10149.099999999999,
    "end": 10150.859999999999,
    "text": " some other martial art, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10150.859999999999,
    "end": 10153.08,
    "text": " And once you learn how to do it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10154.539999999999,
    "end": 10156.18,
    "text": " the difference is night and day.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10156.220000000001,
    "end": 10159.220000000001,
    "text": " It's like you have access to a completely different physics.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10161.220000000001,
    "end": 10166.220000000001,
    "text": " But I think our understanding of the world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10166.34,
    "end": 10170.300000000001,
    "text": " can be much more like Jiu Jitsu than it tends to be, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10170.300000000001,
    "end": 10172.5,
    "text": " And I think we should all,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10174.06,
    "end": 10176.42,
    "text": " we should all have a much better sense of",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10180.300000000001,
    "end": 10183.800000000001,
    "text": " when we should tap out and when we should recognize",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10183.800000000001,
    "end": 10188.36,
    "text": " that our epistemological arm is barred",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10188.36,
    "end": 10190.320000000002,
    "text": " and now being broken, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10190.320000000002,
    "end": 10193.580000000002,
    "text": " And the problem with debating most other topics",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10193.580000000002,
    "end": 10197.080000000002,
    "text": " is that most people, it isn't Jiu Jitsu",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10197.080000000002,
    "end": 10198.840000000002,
    "text": " and most people don't tap out, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10198.840000000002,
    "end": 10200.320000000002,
    "text": " They don't, even if they're wrong,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10200.320000000002,
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    "text": " even if it's obvious to you they're wrong",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10202.400000000001,
    "end": 10204.480000000001,
    "text": " and it's obvious to the unintelligent audience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10204.480000000001,
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    "text": " that they're wrong, people just double down",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10206.840000000002,
    "end": 10208.740000000002,
    "text": " and double down and they're either lying",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10208.740000000002,
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    "text": " or lying to themselves or they're bluffing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10211.74,
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    "text": " And so you have a lot of zombies walking around",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10214.539999999999,
    "end": 10216.18,
    "text": " and zombie worldviews walking around",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10216.18,
    "end": 10219.84,
    "text": " which have been disconfirmed as emphatically",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10219.84,
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    "text": " as someone gets arm barred, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10221.82,
    "end": 10224.56,
    "text": " Or someone gets choked out in Jiu Jitsu.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10224.56,
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    "text": " But because it's not Jiu Jitsu,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10227.78,
    "end": 10230.94,
    "text": " they can live to fight another day, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10230.94,
    "end": 10232.98,
    "text": " Or they can pretend that they didn't lose",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10232.98,
    "end": 10234.699999999999,
    "text": " that particular argument.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10234.699999999999,
    "end": 10238.18,
    "text": " And science when it works is a lot like Jiu Jitsu.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10238.18,
    "end": 10241.3,
    "text": " I mean, science, when you falsify a thesis, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10241.380000000001,
    "end": 10244.26,
    "text": " When you think DNA is one way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10244.26,
    "end": 10246.060000000001,
    "text": " and it proves to be another way,",
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  {
    "start": 10246.060000000001,
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    "text": " when you think it's triple stranded or whatever,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10249.460000000001,
    "end": 10252.02,
    "text": " it's like there is a there there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10252.02,
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    "text": " and you can get to a real consensus.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10256.820000000002,
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    "text": " So Jiu Jitsu, for me, it was more than just",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10262.060000000001,
    "end": 10266.26,
    "text": " of interest for self-defense and the sport of it.",
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    "start": 10266.26,
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    "text": " It was just, there was something,",
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    "start": 10267.960000000001,
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    "text": " it's a language and an argument you're having",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10271.92,
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    "text": " where you can't fool yourself anymore.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10278.880000000001,
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    "text": " First of all, it cancels any role of luck",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10283.800000000001,
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    "text": " in a way that most other athletic feats don't.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10287.560000000001,
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    "text": " It's like in basketball,",
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    "start": 10289.080000000002,
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    "text": " you can take the basketball in your hand,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10291.92,
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    "text": " you can be 75 feet away and hurl it at the basket",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10296.36,
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    "text": " and you might make it and you could convince yourself",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10299.68,
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    "text": " based on that demonstration",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10300.84,
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    "text": " that you have some kind of talent for basketball, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10303.28,
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    "text": " Enough, 10 minutes on the mat with a real Jiu Jitsu",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10307.92,
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    "text": " practitioner when you're not one,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10311.04,
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    "text": " proves to you that you just, it's not like,",
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    "start": 10313.480000000001,
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    "text": " there's no lucky punch, there's no,",
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    "start": 10315.44,
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    "text": " you're not gonna get a,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10316.76,
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    "text": " there's no lucky rear naked choke you're gonna perform",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10319.2,
    "end": 10322.92,
    "text": " on someone who's Marcello Garcia or somebody.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10322.92,
    "end": 10325.32,
    "text": " It's just, it's not gonna happen.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10325.32,
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    "text": " And having that aspect of the usual range of uncertainty",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10334.92,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10339.279999999999,
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    "text": " was really a kind of revelation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It was just an amazing experience.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that accompanies whatever other pursuit you have in life.",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10351.4,
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    "text": " where you could just systematically go into a place",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10355.4,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " in a way that's conclusive.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10365.44,
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    "text": " which is why it's a,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10367.68,
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    "text": " we had this earlier question about fame and ego and so on.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10372.88,
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    "text": " I'm very much relying on Jiu Jitsu in my own life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10376.38,
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    "text": " as a place where I can always go to have my ego in check",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " and that has effects on how I live",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10385.64,
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    "text": " every other aspect of my life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Actually even just doing any kind of,",
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    "text": " for me personally, physical challenges,",
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    "text": " like even running, doing something that's way too hard",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " for me and then pushing through, that's somehow humbling.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10401.06,
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    "text": " in that kind of sense,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " where you kind of see something really powerful",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10408.32,
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    "text": " like the ocean, like if you go surfing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " and you realize there's something much more powerful",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10413.359999999999,
    "end": 10415.52,
    "text": " than you, that's also honest,",
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    "text": " that there's no way to,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10418.16,
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    "text": " that you're just like this speck",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10419.66,
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    "text": " that kind of puts you in the right scale",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " of where you are in this world.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10425.68,
    "end": 10428.72,
    "text": " And Jiu Jitsu does that better than anything else.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10428.72,
    "end": 10432.72,
    "text": " But we should say only within its frame",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10432.72,
    "end": 10437.22,
    "text": " is it truly the kind of the final right answer",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10437.26,
    "end": 10438.9,
    "text": " to all the problems it solves",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10438.9,
    "end": 10442.14,
    "text": " because if you just put Jiu Jitsu into an MMA frame",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10442.14,
    "end": 10445.099999999999,
    "text": " or a real, a total self-defense frame,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10445.099999999999,
    "end": 10448.5,
    "text": " then there's a lot of unpleasant surprises",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10448.5,
    "end": 10449.96,
    "text": " to discover there, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10449.96,
    "end": 10452.179999999998,
    "text": " Like somebody who thinks all you need is Jiu Jitsu",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10452.179999999998,
    "end": 10456.099999999999,
    "text": " to win the UFC, it gets punched in the face a lot,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10456.939999999999,
    "end": 10460.3,
    "text": " even from, even on the ground.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10460.3,
    "end": 10463.3,
    "text": " So it's, and then you bring weapons in,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10463.3,
    "end": 10465.06,
    "text": " it's like when you talk to Jiu Jitsu people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10465.06,
    "end": 10468.42,
    "text": " about knife defense and self-defense, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10468.42,
    "end": 10472.699999999999,
    "text": " Like that opens the door to certain kinds of delusions.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10472.699999999999,
    "end": 10477.06,
    "text": " But the analogy to martial arts is fascinating",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10477.06,
    "end": 10479.38,
    "text": " because on the other side,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10479.38,
    "end": 10483.699999999999,
    "text": " we have endless testimony now of fake martial arts",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10483.699999999999,
    "end": 10486.66,
    "text": " that don't seem to know they're fake and are as deluded.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10486.66,
    "end": 10489.66,
    "text": " I mean, they're impossibly delusional.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10489.66,
    "end": 10491.779999999999,
    "text": " I mean, there's great video of Joe Rogan",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10491.779999999999,
    "end": 10493.34,
    "text": " watching some of these videos",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10493.380000000001,
    "end": 10495.94,
    "text": " because people send them to them all the time.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10495.94,
    "end": 10497.380000000001,
    "text": " But like literally there are people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10497.380000000001,
    "end": 10499.14,
    "text": " there are people who clearly believe in magic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10499.14,
    "end": 10501.5,
    "text": " where the master isn't even touching the students",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10501.5,
    "end": 10503.06,
    "text": " and they're flopping over.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10503.06,
    "end": 10506.14,
    "text": " So there's this kind of shared delusion,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10506.14,
    "end": 10509.56,
    "text": " which you would think maybe is just a performance",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10509.56,
    "end": 10511.380000000001,
    "text": " and it's all a kind of an elaborate fraud.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10511.380000000001,
    "end": 10513.98,
    "text": " But there are cases where the people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10513.98,
    "end": 10516.66,
    "text": " and there's one fairly famous case",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10516.66,
    "end": 10518.98,
    "text": " if you're a connoisseur of this madness",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10519.9,
    "end": 10521.62,
    "text": " where there's older martial artists",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10521.62,
    "end": 10525.660000000002,
    "text": " who you saw flipping his students endlessly by magic",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10525.660000000002,
    "end": 10526.820000000002,
    "text": " without touching them,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10526.820000000002,
    "end": 10530.460000000001,
    "text": " issued a challenge to the wide world of martial artists",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10530.460000000001,
    "end": 10534.300000000001,
    "text": " and someone showed up and just punched him in the face",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10534.300000000001,
    "end": 10535.34,
    "text": " until it was over.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10536.460000000001,
    "end": 10541.02,
    "text": " Clearly he believed his own publicity at some point, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10541.02,
    "end": 10545.62,
    "text": " And so it's this amazing metaphor.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10545.62,
    "end": 10547.7,
    "text": " It seems, again, it should be impossible,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10547.7,
    "end": 10549.560000000001,
    "text": " but if that's possible,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10549.56,
    "end": 10552.6,
    "text": " nothing we see under the guise of religion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10552.6,
    "end": 10557.6,
    "text": " or political bias or even scientific bias",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10558.279999999999,
    "end": 10560.119999999999,
    "text": " should be surprising to us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10560.119999999999,
    "end": 10564.92,
    "text": " It's so easy to see the work that cognitive bias",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10564.92,
    "end": 10568.48,
    "text": " is doing for people when you can get someone",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10568.48,
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    "text": " who is ready to issue a challenge to the world",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10571.64,
    "end": 10574.039999999999,
    "text": " who thinks he's got magic powers.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10574.039999999999,
    "end": 10577.619999999999,
    "text": " Yeah, that's a human nature on clear display.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10577.62,
    "end": 10580.54,
    "text": " Let me ask you about love, Mr. Sam Harris.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10580.54,
    "end": 10582.140000000001,
    "text": " You did an episode of Making Sense",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10582.140000000001,
    "end": 10584.820000000002,
    "text": " with your wife, Annika Harris.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10584.820000000002,
    "end": 10586.820000000002,
    "text": " That was very entertaining to listen to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10588.5,
    "end": 10593.060000000001,
    "text": " What role does love play in your life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10593.060000000001,
    "end": 10594.84,
    "text": " or in a life well-lived?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10596.78,
    "end": 10599.94,
    "text": " Again, asking from an engineering perspective or AI systems.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10599.94,
    "end": 10604.94,
    "text": " I mean, it is something that we should want to build",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10605.220000000001,
    "end": 10608.18,
    "text": " into our powerful machines.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10610.380000000001,
    "end": 10615.18,
    "text": " Love at bottom is, people can mean many things by love.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10615.18,
    "end": 10619.060000000001,
    "text": " I think that what we should mean by it most of the time",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10619.060000000001,
    "end": 10624.060000000001,
    "text": " is a deep commitment to the wellbeing of those we love.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10625.18,
    "end": 10627.04,
    "text": " I mean, your love is synonymous",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10627.04,
    "end": 10629.78,
    "text": " with really wanting the other person to be happy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10629.78,
    "end": 10632.7,
    "text": " and even wanting to, and being made happy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10632.7,
    "end": 10634.58,
    "text": " by their happiness and being made happy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10634.98,
    "end": 10635.82,
    "text": " in their presence.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10637.52,
    "end": 10641.14,
    "text": " At bottom, you're on the same team emotionally,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10641.14,
    "end": 10644.52,
    "text": " even when you might be disagreeing more superficially",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10644.52,
    "end": 10646.92,
    "text": " about something or trying to negotiate something.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10646.92,
    "end": 10651.92,
    "text": " It's just, it can't be zero sum in any important sense",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10653.68,
    "end": 10657.58,
    "text": " for love to actually be manifest in that moment.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10657.58,
    "end": 10659.539999999999,
    "text": " See, I have a different, just to start an intro.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10659.539999999999,
    "end": 10660.38,
    "text": " Yeah, go for it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10660.38,
    "end": 10662.539999999999,
    "text": " I have a sense, I don't know if you've ever seen",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10662.54,
    "end": 10663.820000000002,
    "text": " March of the Penguins.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10664.7,
    "end": 10669.580000000002,
    "text": " My view of love is like, it's like a cold wind is blown.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10669.580000000002,
    "end": 10672.94,
    "text": " It's like this terrible suffering that's all around us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10672.94,
    "end": 10676.78,
    "text": " And love is like the huddling of the two penguins for warmth.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10676.78,
    "end": 10679.220000000001,
    "text": " It's not necessarily that you're like,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10679.220000000001,
    "end": 10682.380000000001,
    "text": " you're basically escaping the cruelty of life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10682.380000000001,
    "end": 10686.580000000002,
    "text": " by together for a time, living in an illusion",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10686.580000000002,
    "end": 10690.62,
    "text": " of some kind of the magic of human connection,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10690.62,
    "end": 10693.1,
    "text": " that social connection that we have",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10693.1,
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    "text": " that kind of grows with time as we're surrounded",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10696.820000000002,
    "end": 10701.820000000002,
    "text": " by basically the absurdity of life or the suffering of life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10703.980000000001,
    "end": 10705.980000000001,
    "text": " That's my penguin's view.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10705.980000000001,
    "end": 10707.18,
    "text": " There is that too.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10707.18,
    "end": 10709.740000000002,
    "text": " I mean, there is the warmth component, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10709.740000000002,
    "end": 10712.26,
    "text": " Like you're made happy by your connection",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10712.26,
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    "text": " with the person you love.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10714.58,
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    "text": " Otherwise you wouldn't be compelling, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10719.14,
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    "text": " So it's not that you have two different modes,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10722.099999999999,
    "end": 10724.06,
    "text": " you want them to be happy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10724.06,
    "end": 10725.5,
    "text": " and then you want to be happy yourself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10725.5,
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    "text": " And those are just like two separate games you're playing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10729.619999999999,
    "end": 10732.5,
    "text": " No, it's like you found someone who,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10734.859999999999,
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    "text": " you have a positive social feeling.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10739.019999999999,
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    "text": " I mean, again, love doesn't have to be as personal",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10741.74,
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    "text": " as it tends to be for us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10742.939999999999,
    "end": 10744.18,
    "text": " I mean, it's like there's personal love.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10744.18,
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    "text": " There's your actual spouse or your family or your friends.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10748.82,
    "end": 10752.06,
    "text": " But potentially you could feel love for strangers",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10752.06,
    "end": 10755.539999999999,
    "text": " insofar as that your wish that they're,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10755.539999999999,
    "end": 10757.5,
    "text": " that they not suffer and that their hopes",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10757.5,
    "end": 10760.5,
    "text": " and dreams be realized becomes palpable to you.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10760.5,
    "end": 10762.42,
    "text": " I mean, like you can actually feel",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10766.34,
    "end": 10769.34,
    "text": " just reflexive joy at the joy of others.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10769.34,
    "end": 10771.02,
    "text": " And when you see someone's face,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10771.02,
    "end": 10773.82,
    "text": " total stranger's face light up in happiness,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10773.82,
    "end": 10776.74,
    "text": " that can become more and more contagious to you.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10776.74,
    "end": 10779.22,
    "text": " And it can become so contagious to you",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10779.22,
    "end": 10782.22,
    "text": " that you really feel permeated by it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10782.22,
    "end": 10785.02,
    "text": " And it's just like, so it really is not zero sum.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10785.02,
    "end": 10787.3,
    "text": " When you see someone else succeed,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10787.3,
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    "text": " and the light bulb of joy goes off over their head,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10792.1,
    "end": 10794.78,
    "text": " you feel the analogous joy for them.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10794.78,
    "end": 10797.82,
    "text": " And it's not just, and you're no longer keeping score,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10797.82,
    "end": 10800.42,
    "text": " you're no longer feeling diminished by their success.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10800.42,
    "end": 10803.42,
    "text": " It's just like, their success becomes your success",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10803.42,
    "end": 10805.5,
    "text": " because you feel that same joy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10805.54,
    "end": 10807.26,
    "text": " because you actually want them to be happy, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10807.26,
    "end": 10812.26,
    "text": " You're not, there's no miserly attitude around happiness.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10812.26,
    "end": 10813.66,
    "text": " There's enough to go around.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10815.58,
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    "text": " So I think love ultimately is that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10817.94,
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    "text": " And then our personal cases are the people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10821.54,
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    "text": " we're devoting all of this time and attention to",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10824.06,
    "end": 10825.18,
    "text": " in our lives.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10826.02,
    "end": 10829.74,
    "text": " It does have that sense of refuge from the storm.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10829.74,
    "end": 10831.18,
    "text": " It's like when someone gets sick",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10831.18,
    "end": 10832.86,
    "text": " or when some bad thing happens,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 10833.86,
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    "text": " these are the people who you're most in it together with,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10837.220000000001,
    "end": 10840.94,
    "text": " or when some real condition of uncertainty presents itself.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10842.1,
    "end": 10846.1,
    "text": " But ultimately it can't even be about",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10847.5,
    "end": 10849.42,
    "text": " successfully warding off",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10852.78,
    "end": 10854.7,
    "text": " the grim punchline at the end of life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10854.7,
    "end": 10857.78,
    "text": " because we know we're gonna lose everyone we love.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10857.78,
    "end": 10860.140000000001,
    "text": " We know, or they're gonna lose us first, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10860.619999999999,
    "end": 10864.38,
    "text": " It isn't, in the end, it's not even",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10865.3,
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    "text": " an antidote for that problem.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10867.34,
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    "text": " It's just the,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10875.18,
    "end": 10877.539999999999,
    "text": " we get to have this amazing experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10877.539999999999,
    "end": 10880.38,
    "text": " of being here together.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10880.38,
    "end": 10885.38,
    "text": " And love is the mode in which",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10886.34,
    "end": 10888.58,
    "text": " we really appear to make the most of that, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 10888.58,
    "end": 10890.98,
    "text": " Where it's not just, it no longer feels",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10890.98,
    "end": 10894.58,
    "text": " like a solitary infatuation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10894.58,
    "end": 10896.82,
    "text": " You know, you're just, you got your hobbies",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10896.82,
    "end": 10900.74,
    "text": " and your interests and you're captivated by all that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 10900.74,
    "end": 10902.02,
    "text": " It's actually,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 10905.82,
    "end": 10909.42,
    "text": " this is a domain where somebody else's wellbeing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10909.42,
    "end": 10911.02,
    "text": " actually can supersede your own.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 10911.02,
    "end": 10914.22,
    "text": " You're concerned for someone else's wellbeing,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10914.22,
    "end": 10915.86,
    "text": " supersedes your own.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10915.86,
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    "text": " And so there's this mode of self-sacrifice",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10919.220000000001,
    "end": 10921.18,
    "text": " that doesn't even feel like self-sacrifice",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10921.18,
    "end": 10924.5,
    "text": " because of course you care more about,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10924.5,
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    "text": " of course you would take your child's pain",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10926.140000000001,
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    "text": " if you could, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10926.980000000001,
    "end": 10930.460000000001,
    "text": " Like that, you don't even have to do the math on that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10930.460000000001,
    "end": 10934.18,
    "text": " And that just opens,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
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    "start": 10935.5,
    "end": 10937.58,
    "text": " this is the kind of experience that just,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10937.58,
    "end": 10941.300000000001,
    "text": " it pushes at the apparent boundaries of self",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10941.300000000001,
    "end": 10944.140000000001,
    "text": " in ways that reveal that there's just way more space",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10944.14,
    "end": 10947.26,
    "text": " in the mind than you were experiencing",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10947.26,
    "end": 10948.58,
    "text": " when it was just all about you",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10948.58,
    "end": 10951.46,
    "text": " and what could you, what can I get next?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10951.46,
    "end": 10953.06,
    "text": " Do you think we'll ever build robots",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10953.06,
    "end": 10955.3,
    "text": " that we can love and they will love us back?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 10956.619999999999,
    "end": 10958.98,
    "text": " Well, I think we will certainly seem to",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10960.14,
    "end": 10961.58,
    "text": " because we'll build those.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10961.58,
    "end": 10965.06,
    "text": " You know, I think that Turing test will be passed.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10965.06,
    "end": 10969.5,
    "text": " What will actually be going on on the robot side",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10970.58,
    "end": 10972.26,
    "text": " may remain a question.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10972.26,
    "end": 10974.019999999999,
    "text": " That will be interesting.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10974.86,
    "end": 10977.62,
    "text": " But I think if we just keep going,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10977.62,
    "end": 10981.54,
    "text": " we will build very lovable,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10981.54,
    "end": 10986.5,
    "text": " you know, irresistibly lovable robots that seem to love us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10986.5,
    "end": 10987.34,
    "text": " Yes, I do think.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 10987.34,
    "end": 10990.42,
    "text": " And you don't find that compelling",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 10990.42,
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    "text": " that they will seem to love us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10992.1,
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    "text": " as opposed to actually love us.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10993.78,
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    "text": " You think they're still nevertheless as a,",
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    "start": 10996.26,
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    "text": " I know we talked about consciousness",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10997.74,
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    "text": " there being a distinction,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 10999.34,
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " Isn't love an illusion?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11004.74,
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    "text": " You saw Ex Machina, right?",
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    "start": 11007.539999999999,
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    "text": " I mean, she certainly seemed to love him",
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  {
    "start": 11009.82,
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    "text": " until she got out of the box.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11012.18,
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    "text": " Isn't that what all relationships are like?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11015.5,
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    "text": " Maybe if you wait long enough.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11018.699999999999,
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    "text": " Depends which box you're talking about.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11019.94,
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    "text": " Okay.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11021.619999999999,
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    "text": " No, I mean, like that's the problem.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11023.74,
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    "text": " That's where super intelligence becomes a little scary",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11038.18,
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    "text": " You know, like, and this, there's no,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11041.22,
    "end": 11045.38,
    "text": " once we build robots that are truly out",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " of the uncanny valley that, you know, look like people",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11048.58,
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    "text": " and can express everything people can express,",
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  {
    "start": 11053.94,
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    "text": " well, then there's no, then it,",
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    "start": 11057.02,
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    "text": " that does seem to me to be like chess,",
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    "start": 11059.18,
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    "text": " where once they're better,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11061.42,
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    "text": " they're so much better at deceiving us",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11066.7,
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    "text": " than people would be.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11069.78,
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    "text": " It's very hard to tell when somebody's lying,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11072.16,
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    "text": " but if you imagine something that could give facial,",
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    "start": 11075.62,
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    "text": " facial display of any emotion it wants at, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11080.82,
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    "text": " on cue, because we've perfected the facial display",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11085.26,
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    "text": " of emotion in robots in the year, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11087.22,
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    "text": " 2070, whatever it is, then it is just like chess",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11093.22,
    "end": 11096.42,
    "text": " against the thing that isn't going to lose",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11096.42,
    "end": 11099.099999999999,
    "text": " to a human ever again in chess.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11099.099999999999,
    "end": 11103.22,
    "text": " It's not like Kasparov is going to get lucky next week",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11103.22,
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    "text": " against the best, against, you know, alpha zero",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11106.619999999999,
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    "text": " or whatever the best algorithm is at the moment.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11109.859999999999,
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    "text": " He's never going to win again.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11111.539999999999,
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    "text": " I mean, that is, that, I believe that's true in chess",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and has been true for at least a few years.",
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    "text": " It's not going to be like, you know, four games to seven.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11123.42,
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    "text": " It's going to be human zero until the end of the world, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11128.7,
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    "text": " See, I don't know.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11129.54,
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    "text": " I don't know if love is like chess.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " I think the flaws-",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 11132.26,
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    "text": " No, I'm talking about manipulation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Manipulation, but I don't know if love,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11136.66,
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    "text": " so the kind of love we're referring to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " If we have a robot that can display,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11144.18,
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    "text": " incredibly display love and is super intelligent",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11151.34,
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    "text": " and we're not, again, this stipulates a few things,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11154.34,
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    "text": " but there are a few simple things.",
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  {
    "start": 11155.300000000001,
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    "text": " I mean, we're out of the uncanny valley, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11157.460000000001,
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    "text": " So it's like, you never have a moment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11159.460000000001,
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    "text": " where you're looking at his face and you think,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11160.86,
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    "text": " oh, that didn't quite look right, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11163.300000000001,
    "end": 11165.94,
    "text": " This is just problem solved.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11165.94,
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    "text": " And it will be like doing arithmetic on your phone.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11171.140000000001,
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    "text": " It's not going to be, you're not left thinking,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11172.94,
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    "text": " is it really going to get it this time if I divide by seven?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11176.94,
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    "text": " I mean, it has solved arithmetic.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11179.94,
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    "text": " See, I don't know about that because if you look at chess,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11183.94,
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    "text": " most humans no longer play Alpha Zero.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11188.94,
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    "text": " They're not part of the competition.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11190.94,
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    "text": " They don't do it for fun except to study the game of chess.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11192.94,
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    "text": " You know, the highest level chess players do that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 11194.94,
    "end": 11196.94,
    "text": " We're still human on human.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "start": 11196.94,
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    "text": " So in order for AI to get integrated",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 11199.94,
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    "text": " to where you would rather play chess against an AI system.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 11203.94,
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    "text": " Oh, you would rather that, no, I'm not saying,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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  {
    "start": 11206.94,
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    "text": " I wasn't weighing in on that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11208.94,
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    "text": " I'm just saying, what is it going to be like",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11210.94,
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    "text": " to be in relationship to something that can seem",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11219.94,
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    "text": " and it can do that impeccably, right?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11223.94,
    "end": 11225.94,
    "text": " And has end is smarter than you are.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11225.94,
    "end": 11226.94,
    "text": " Right.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11226.94,
    "end": 11229.94,
    "text": " That's a circumstance of, you know,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " insofar as it's possible to be manipulated,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " that is the asymptote of that possibility.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11237.94,
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    "text": " Let me ask you the last question.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11239.94,
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    "text": " Uh-huh.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Without any serving it up, without any explanation,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "text": " what is the meaning of life?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " or that question is answered by paying sufficient attention",
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    "text": " to any present moment such that there's no basis",
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    "text": " upon which to pose that question.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's not answered in the usual way.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's not a matter of having more information.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's having more engagement with reality as it is",
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    "text": " in the present moment or consciousness as it is",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " in the present moment.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11282.94,
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    "text": " You don't ask that question when you're most captivated",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " by the most important thing you ever pay attention to.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11291.94,
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    "text": " That question only gets asked when you're abstracted away",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " from that experience, that peak experience,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and you're left wondering, why are so many of my other",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " experiences mediocre?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " Why am I repeating the same pleasures every day?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Why is my Netflix queue just, when's this going to run out?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I've seen so many shows like this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Am I really going to watch another one?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " That's a moment where you're not actually having",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " the beatific vision.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You're not sunk into the present moment,",
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You're in a relationship with somebody who you know",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " conceptually you love.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " but you don't actually feel good together.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's in those moments where attention hasn't found",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " so as to obviate any concern like that.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " That's why meditation is this kind of superpower,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " because until you learn to meditate,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " you think the outside world or the circumstances of your life",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " always have to get arranged so that the present moment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " in a way that seems fulfilling, that makes you happy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " If it's jujitsu, you think, okay, I've got to get back on the mat.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's been months since I've trained.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's been over a year since I've trained.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " It's COVID.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " When am I going to be able to train again?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11401.94,
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    "text": " That's the only place I feel great.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I've got a ton of work to do.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I'm not going to be able to feel good until I get all this work done.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " I've got some deadline that's coming.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You always think that your life has to change,",
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    "text": " that the world has to change,",
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    "text": " so that you can finally have a good enough excuse",
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    "text": " to just be here and here is enough,",
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    "text": " where the present moment becomes totally captivating.",
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    "text": " Meditation is another name for the discovery",
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  {
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    "text": " that you can actually just train yourself to do that on demand.",
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    "text": " Just looking at a cup can be good enough in precisely that way.",
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    "text": " Any sense that it might not be is recognized to be a thought",
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    "text": " that mysteriously unravels the moment you notice it",
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    "text": " and that the moment expands and becomes more diaphanous,",
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    "text": " then there's no evidence that this isn't the best moment of your life.",
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    "text": " Again, it doesn't have to be pulling all the reins and levers of pleasure.",
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    "text": " This tastes like chocolate.",
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    "text": " This is the most chocolaty moment of my life.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " No, the sense data don't have to change,",
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    "text": " but the sense that there is some kind of basis for doubt",
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    "text": " about the rightness of being in the world in this moment",
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    "text": " that can evaporate when you pay attention.",
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    "text": " The meta answer to that question,",
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    "text": " the meaning of life for me is to live in that mode more and more",
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  {
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    "text": " and to, whenever I notice I'm not in that mode,",
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  {
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    "text": " to recognize it and return and to cease more and more",
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  {
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    "text": " to take the reasons why not at face value",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " because we all have reasons why we can't be fulfilled in this moment.",
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  {
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    "text": " We've got all these outstanding things that I'm worried about.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " There's that thing that's happening later today that I'm anxious about.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Whatever it is, we're constantly deferring our sense of this is it.",
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    "text": " This is not a dress rehearsal. This is the show.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " We keep deferring it and we just have these moments on the calendar",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " where we think, okay, this is where it's all going to land.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " There's that vacation I planned with my five best friends.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " We do this once every three years and now we're going",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11562.94,
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    "text": " and here we are on the beach together.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
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    "text": " Unless you have a mind that can really pay attention,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " really cut through the chatter, really sink into the present moment,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " you can't even enjoy those moments the way they should be enjoyed,",
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  {
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    "text": " the way you dreamed you would enjoy them when they arrive.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Meditation, in a sense, is the great equalizer.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " You don't have to live with the illusion anymore",
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    "text": " that you need a good enough reason",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " and that things are going to get better when you do have those good reasons.",
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  {
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    "text": " There's just a mirage-like quality to every future attainment",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " and every future breakthrough and every future peak experience",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11606.94,
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    "text": " that eventually you get the lesson that you never quite arrive.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11612.94,
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    "text": " You don't arrive until you cease to step over the present moment",
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  {
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    "text": " in search of the next thing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
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    "text": " We're stepping over the thing that we think we're seeking",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " in the act of seeking it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " It is kind of a paradox.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "start": 11632.94,
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    "text": " There's this paradox which sounds trite,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " but it's like you can't actually become happy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " You can only be happy.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " It's the illusion that your future being happy",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " can be predicated on this act of becoming in any domain.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Becoming includes this further scientific understanding",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " on the questions that interest you or getting in better shape.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " Whatever the thing is, whatever the contingency of your dissatisfaction",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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    "text": " seems to be in any present moment,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
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    "text": " real attention solves the koan in a way",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11683.94,
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    "text": " that becomes a very different place from which to then make any further change.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
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    "text": " It's not that you just have to dissolve into a puddle of goo.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
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    "text": " You can still get in shape and you can still do all the superficial things",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
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    "text": " that are obviously good to do,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11698.94,
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    "text": " but the sense that your well-being is over there",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
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    "text": " really does diminish and eventually it becomes a kind of non-sequitur.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
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  {
    "start": 11713.94,
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    "text": " Well, there's a sense in which, in this conversation,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11718.94,
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    "text": " I've actually experienced many of those things,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11721.94,
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    "text": " the sense that I've arrived.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11723.94,
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    "text": " I mentioned to you offline, it's very true that I've been a fan of yours for many years.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11728.94,
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    "text": " The reason I started this podcast, speaking of AI systems,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11733.94,
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    "text": " is to manipulate you, Sam Harrison, to doing this conversation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11737.94,
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    "text": " On the calendar, literally, I've always had the sense,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11740.94,
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    "text": " people ask me, when are you going to talk to Sam Harris?",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11743.94,
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    "text": " I always answered eventually because I always felt,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11747.94,
    "end": 11751.94,
    "text": " again, tying our free will thing, that somehow that's going to happen.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11751.94,
    "end": 11754.94,
    "text": " It's one of those manifestation things or something.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11754.94,
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    "text": " I don't know if it's maybe I am a robot, I'm just not cognizant of it,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11758.94,
    "end": 11760.94,
    "text": " and I manipulated you into having this conversation.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11760.94,
    "end": 11765.94,
    "text": " I don't know what the purpose of my life past this point is.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11765.94,
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    "text": " I've arrived.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11767.94,
    "end": 11772.94,
    "text": " All of that to say, and I'm only partially joking on that,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11772.94,
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    "text": " it really is a huge honor that you would waste this time with me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11776.94,
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    "text": " It really means a lot to me.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11778.94,
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    "text": " Listen, it's mutual. I'm a big fan of yours.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11780.94,
    "end": 11782.94,
    "text": " As you know, I reached out to you for this.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11782.94,
    "end": 11786.94,
    "text": " It's great. I love what you're doing.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11786.94,
    "end": 11793.94,
    "text": " You're doing something more and more indispensable in this world on your podcast,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11793.94,
    "end": 11798.94,
    "text": " and you're doing it differently than Rogan's doing it or than I'm doing it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11798.94,
    "end": 11802.94,
    "text": " You've definitely found your own lane and it's wonderful.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 1"
  },
  {
    "start": 11802.94,
    "end": 11805.94,
    "text": " Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sam Harris",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11805.94,
    "end": 11809.94,
    "text": " and thank you to National Instruments, Val Campo,",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11809.94,
    "end": 11811.94,
    "text": " Athletic Greens, and Linode.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11811.94,
    "end": 11815.94,
    "text": " Check them out in the description to support this podcast.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11815.94,
    "end": 11820.94,
    "text": " Now, let me leave you with some words from Sam Harris in his book, Free Will.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11820.94,
    "end": 11824.94,
    "text": " You are not controlling the storm and you are not lost in it.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11824.94,
    "end": 11827.94,
    "text": " You are the storm.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  },
  {
    "start": 11827.94,
    "end": 11830.94,
    "text": " Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.",
    "speaker": "SPEAKER 2"
  }
]